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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1997 > Nov > Nov 24

Re: Phoenix lights, FTs, whatever

From: Jakes Louw <LOUWJE@telkom.co.za>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:08:18 +0200
Fwd Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:32:58 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix lights, FTs, whatever

This is a combination of three replies, 2 posted to the list,
one a private post that I have kept anonymous as I haven't
specifically asked the mailer if I could use his/her name.

I will just insert some comments here and there, but the
points I'm trying to make are:

- We have no scientific proof, evidence, or knowledge
of what these FTs are
- There are varying degrees of interpretation of the
events/objects that are based on belief systems

>Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 19:17:55 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: "S. Baldwin" <sblee@stc.net> [Susan Baldwin]
>Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Phoenix lights, FTs, whatever

>They are observed by MORE people over a high population area but
>I would not say *mostly observed*. Check out


>case databases. Its chock full of sightings here in Georgia (US)
>over areas other than very populated Atlanta.

Sorry, I'm no longer able to surf. Could you summarize the
sightings as follows:
- Time (as in 24 hour hh:mm) commonality
- Night/ day?
- Near to any known mil. base, power-station, whatever?

>You ask some excellent questions in the rest of your posting, I
>have wondered about those myself. Lights on the vehicles might
>prevent small planes from flying into them perhaps?

Good comment, but read on to see what others think.

>Susan  B.


>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Mark Cashman <mcashman@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: re: UFO UpDate: Phoenix lights, FTs, whatever
>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:23:00 -0800

>We don't know. There are some daytime sightings of triangular
>geometries, but not many.

Reference sites? Case studies?

>I suspect some percentage (size unknown) are mispercieved
>aircraft. I know that I have seen some video and photo material
>claiming to be FTs which are clearly aircraft.

>>  - Why fly something over Phoenix at night, with all
>>  the headlights on

>They can't turn them off.
>They don't care if we see them.

Have you proof of this? Why can't they turn them off?
If they don't care, why not fly during the day?

>>  - Why are these things mostly observed over high
>>  population density areas, and not small to medium
>>  settlements

>FT sightings have been in a variety of areas. The Hudson Valley
>sightings, for instance, were in areas ranging from high pop to
>rural. Also, don't forget, if there are no witnesses, or the
>witnesses don't report, you don't know what's being seen. We are
>far from having good national coverage of sightings.

Fair enough, but we need to base any theories on investigated
cases that have a fair chance of being "genuine" unidentified
FTs. Therefore, the role of MUFON or whatever other organization
willing to take up the role of international data
collector, is to categorize and sort any and all reports.
Field investigators, REGARDLESS of their organizational
allegiances, must contribute to this database.

>>  If one flies at night to hide oneself, then the
>>  lights should be off, no?

>If the "lights" are not lights but are an ionization side effect
>of some part of the operation of the object, then perhaps not. We
>know that UFOs can shut down their luminosity for limited periods
>at least without falling out of the sky, but there is a clear
>connection between UFO luminosity and operation (see
>Moreland-1959, Selma-1957 in my website chronological catalog

>	http://www.geocities.com/~mcashman/ufochron.htm

>for more details).

We "know" this? We have tested said flying craft, and have
documented evidence that these craft produce some EM
effect that is in the incandescent light intensity range
of those seen in Phoenix? Have we testimony from an
electronics expert that can tell us at what voltage
these arc-light effects are produced?

>>  If one flies at night with the lights on, so one
>>  can see where one is flying, I assume,

>This is probably not a likely reason for UFO luminosity. Again, see
>cases such as those mentioned above which suggest the luminosity
>is a side effect of the operation of the object.

See my queries as well. I much prefer to think they use the
lights as warnings.

>>  then why
>>  over a humonguous place like Phoenix, Arizona?

>"Ladies and gentlemen, down below we have one of the humans'
>large population centers. Observe the use of primitive incandescent
>lighting and internal combustion vehicles. Over the mountains, there,
>you can see where earlier today their primitive aircraft engaged in
>flare drops... Please feel free to take photos, and we have some
>souveniers for sale in the lounge."

Now THAT is an interesting thought. Could explain a lot.

>>  If one flies at night with the lights on, over
>>  Phoenix, Arizona, then why not during the day?

>Maybe they do. But maybe the big wing guys are nocturnal. I mean,
>really, any of this is speculation. We can't say why the UFO
>phenomenon behaves as it does without carefully examining the
>available information.

Aha! And there you say it yourself: "the available information".
Do we have info of the right quality to formulate informed
opinions? Shouldn't we do that first?

>Right now we are still largely in the descriptive stages - "Large
>formations or large single objects fly over population centers at
>night. We don't know why." We are not at the stage where the
>level of information allows us confidently to predict motives or
>behavior (except, perhaps, that many large formation sightings
>will occur over populated areas).



>I'm replying privately rather than over the UFO Updates List because
>discussed this sort of thing several times before on that list, and the
>others might grow weary of it!

Not at all, because NOTHING has been explained regarding the

>The aliens' reason would seem to be: deniability.  If they fly at
>then people can argue that what was seen might have been airplanes in
>formation, or slowly falling flares, etc.  So skeptics who would
>be driven out of their minds -- literally crazy -- if they were forced
>face up to the truth all at once, can have a way out and thus preserve
>their sanity.  This reasoning implies that the aliens in charge of it
>are ethical to this extent, and have been, since 1947 and before.

This is a presumption of alien intent. There are no ethics in
abductions. Would you care to explain how the two issues can be
brought together?

>Yet they fly over populated areas (at night) just so that enough people
>can see them to get some discussions going that might make it into the

With what intent?

>If they did this during the day, and allowed themselves to be visible
>all, it could be too much for even the staunchest negative skeptics to
>able to deny, and then the UFO coverup would suddenly be over, and all
>panic and chaos could ensue.  Millions of deaths could occur over the
>world, of societies broke down, etc.

The UFO coverup is a fact, is it? Global panic?

>But I presume that it wouldn't be nearly so bad now, after 50 years of
>such sightings and abductions, etc., if the UFOs were suddenly known
>pronounced to be here and real, as it would have been without those 50
>years of preparations that the ETs have allowed us.

Then why still hide away at night?

>Of course, the aliens can show their UFOs to more people in the daytime
>2nd or 3rd-world countries and still get away with it, because the U.S.
>and the other major political powers then would just continue to ignore

Do you have proof that there are more sightings in 3rd-world countries?
Would you say that the average Western person who lives comfortably
in his 3 bedroom suburban house spends more time gazing
at the sky than a subsistance farmer in Africa or India living in
a mud and thatch hut?

I'm sorry: nobody has started getting it yet: this FT phenomena
is predominantly an American/UK thing:
what we need to do is find the common denominator/s in each case
or sighting.

Jakes E. Louw
+27 12 311-2668
082 923 6144

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