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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1998 > Jul > Jul 1

Re: Mag 1/4 -- Comments on Trindade Isl. 2/2

From: Jerry Cohen <rjcohen@li.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:23:20 -0400
Fwd Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 09:03:05 -0400
Subject: Re: Mag 1/4 -- Comments on Trindade Isl. 2/2


>From: The Duke of Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter
Brookesmith]
>Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 22:53:23 -0400
>Fwd Date: Sat, 27 Jun 1998 10:53:47 -0400
>Subject: MAGONIA ETH Bulletin #4

>>From: " Jerry Cohen" <rjcohen@li.net>
>>Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 22:48:21 -0400
>>Fwd Date: Mon, 18 May 1998 10:11:25 -0400
>>Subject: Re: MAGONIA ETH Bulletin 01

>>>From: Mendoza <101653.2205@compuserve.com> [Peter Brookesmith]
>>>Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 17:43:46 -0400
>>>Fwd Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 11:29:27 -0400
>>>Subject: MAGONIA ETH Bulletin 01
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Continued from: "Mag 1/4__Comments on Trindade Isl.1"


As in part 1, please note, "MAGONIA ETH Bulletin 01"
will be abbreviated to "M".

We also know the following from the Blue Book report:

5. Publicity. The press reports after the publication of the
photographs covered a great deal of newspaper space for about
a week, tending to prove or disprove the authenticity of
Baruna's photographs. DIARIO CARICCA reported that personnel
of SALDANHA were under rigid orders of silence.

JC:If this were true it wouldn't surprise me since all this
attention by news media had to be taking away from the normal
course of daily business of the people involved.

Everything we have said so far summates to the reason for my
stated belief...


>>It seems rather obvious to me that people did see it. Whether
>>they would admit it to the newspapers, that is another story,
>>especially when we realize who the people were.

>>....snip....At least some if not most of the possible
>>witnesses aboard were scientists. Would _you_ risk your career
>>as a scientist participating in world-wide IGY experiments to
>>say you saw this, even if you did? We know how scientists are:
>>if you don't have something solid or the numbers and data to
>>prove it, it doesn't exist. Who would know better than another
>>scientist?

JC:We see these same sentiments echoed time and time again in
various posts from UFO skeptics who are honestly attempting to
follow scientific principles. (i.e. if you can't prove it by
repeatable experiments, "it isn't.")  Any scientists who receive
government funding, reading these posts, care to comment? Be 100%
honest. If you saw it and had no other proof other than a
photograph(s), would you say this to the newspapers? Remember,
"be honest."


BTW, on another incredibly long shot, are there any witnesses
who were on the ship during the sighting who would like to make
a comment here? If any of these people are still alive and
reading this list, perhaps they may be of retirement age, not
have to worry about grants, etc. and might possibly want to set
the record straight.


I also pointed out that Dr. J. Allen Hynek's following comments,
made after approximately twenty years of study on the topic,
also support what I have said in this regard:

>>Hynek, J. Allen "The UFO Experience" Henry Regnery Company
>>1972, hardcover

>>Chapter 1
>>The Laughter of Science

>>p.9"the most coherent and articulate UFO reports come
>>from people who have not given much thought to the subject and
>>generally who are surprised and shocked by their experience."

>>p.9"some of the very best reports have come from
>>scientifically trained people..... These reports are usually
>>rarely published however, because the person usually requests
>>anonymity."


M's author says the following...

>>> If there really were many witnesses, then the photographs
>>>are hardly likely to be fakes. If there were no witnesses,
>>>it is difficult to see how people could be fooled by a
>>>photographer who purported to take pictures of something
>>>which nobody else noticed from the crowded deck of a ship.

JC:In light of the all the facts we've examined so far, it
seems to me, the incongruity M's author has just presented us
with is the exact reason this case _should not_ be summarily
dismissed without a further serious in-depth, accurate
investigation made concerning the specific points addressed by
this researcher. There appears to be enough evidence to conclude
there probably were witnesses.

Perhaps this is an inconclusive case to this point, so be it.
But I would hope reasonable people can understand why the case
shouldn't be simply written off as conclusive evidence the case
was hoaxed.


Additionally, regarding M's author's observations re Dr.
Menzel's comments on the photographs, and perhaps the bottom
line to all this...

>>>Dr Menzel
>>>originally thought the photographs showed an aircraft flying
>>>through cloud, but eventually claimed that they were faked.

JC:As I was trying to indicate in my 17 May post, "Where can we
find his proof that they were faked?" Did he do a photographic
analysis of the photos? Has anyone, and what did it show? We all
know "claiming" and "proving" are two different things. If it's
been proven, we're all entitled to see it.


Finally, regarding the Trindade photos, M's author said...

>>> And if you are a sceptic it depends whether you
>>>believe the photographs were faked or that they are genuine
>>>and that they portray an aircraft or some natural phenomenon.

JC:My reply to this:

1)	What aircraft of earthly origins back in the 1950's, or
	today, has the configuration displayed in the Trindade
	photographs?

2)	To what exact phenomenon is M's author referring?

3)	How was the supposed faking accomplished with, what
	appears to be, a high probability of witness
	confirmation?

Respectfully,
Jerry Cohen

 Author: Oberg/Cooper rebuttals
Website: http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/
UFOmind: http://www.ufomind.com/ufo/people/c/cohen/

P.S.	Full Blue Book report on the Brazilian Navy survey ship
Almirante Saldanha UFO sighting, off Trindade Island, as it
appears in Dr. Hynek's "UFO Report" can be found at:

http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/Trindade_Hynek.html
Dr. Hynek's comments preface and conclude the report

SOURCES OF INFORMATION: Look Magazine Special . FLYING SAUCERS .
pub. by Editors of United Press International and Cowles
Communications, Inc., Belleville, Lance . UPI Rio de Janeiro
"Ola o disco!" : also, Hynek, Allen J.: "The Hynek UFO Report" .
New York . Dell Publishing Co., Inc. 1977 . chapter 10 "The
Brazilian UFO Photos"

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Interestingly, for those interested, there are two military
cases which happened approximately 2 1/2 months prior to
Trindade; Kirtland & Sebago. I verified their exact dates and
times with Jan Aldrich, Project 1947 and discovered they had
actually occurred closer in time to each other than I originally
thought.

- - KIRTLAND/SEBAGO DATES & TIMES - -
> Kirkland AFB, NM 10:45-11:04 pm MST 4 Nov
>
> Sebago 05:10-05:21 am 5 Nov

That places them about 5 hours apart.

Their summaries & newpaper articles can be found beginning at
http://www.li.net/~rjcohen/ocr.7a.html#Anchor
see 7a, 7b, 7c