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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1998 > Jun > Jun 11

Re: Roswell Photos Clears Air Force General

From: DRudiak@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 16:23:21 EDT
Fwd Date: Thu, 11 Jun 1998 23:38:15 -0400
Subject: Re: Roswell Photos Clears Air Force General

>> From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993@aol.com
>> Date: Thu, 4 Jun 1998 12:44:37 EDT
>> To: updates@globalserve.net
>> Subject: Re: UFO UpDate: Re: Roswell Photos Clears Air Force General

<large snip>

>> Again, this wasn't a point I made, but I will address it. The
>> purpose Project Mogul might have be classified, but the
>> equipment was not. It was, in essence, a weather balloon and
>> radar reflector (or for those who want to nitpic, a cluster of
>> balloons and an array of equipment). However, that equipment was
>> NOT classified. It was so unimportant that pictures of a cluster
>> of balloons launched at Alamogordo appeared in newspapers around
>> the country on July 10, 1947. Had it been a Mogul balloon, there
>> would have been no need for SAC headquarters to issue warnings
>> to Ramey and DuBose.

>> Not to mention the fact that the CAA required the Mogul people
>> to announce through NOTAMS (Notice to Airmen) that the
>> launch had taken place.

>From: Robert Todd <RTodd12191@aol.com
>Date: Fri, 5 Jun 1998 14:59:03 EDT
>Fwd Date: Sat, 06 Jun 1998 10:02:50 -0400
>Subject: Re: Roswell Photos Clears Air Force General

>This is a claim Mr. Randle keeps repeating, despite the fact
>that it has been debunked before.

>Essentially, Mr. Randle's claim is that members of the New York
>Univeristy (NYU) Balloon Group were required to provide high
>density air traffic areas with information about the launches of
>their balloons. In other words, the pilots and others at Roswell
>were aware of the balloon arrays because the CAA demanded that
>the launches be announced in the Notices to Airmen (NOTAMs),
>which the pilots would have read.

>One of the reasons the NYU balloon launches were moved to
>Alamogordo Army Air Field (AAAF) was because of the airspace
>restrictions placed on the development effort in the New
>York/New Jersey/Pennsylvania area by the CAA.

Actually the major CAA restriction objected to by Mogul was on
the amount of cloud cover required before launch. There is NO
documentation that they objected to the issuance of NOTAMs. See

> No formal
> arrangements were made to notify anybody in the New Mexico area

There is no clear documentation to that effect. It's simply one
interpretation of the actual Mogul documents. Again, Mogul
explicity objected to cloud cover restrictions, but NOT the
issuance of NOTAMs.

>because it was assumed (no doubt with a wink and a nod on the
>part of NYU personnel) that the balloons would not drift off the
>White Sands range.

If it was done with a "wink and a nod," then they were acting
irresponsibly. The balloons were potential air hazards.

Mr. Todd is distorting slightly what is ACTUALLY documented in
the Mogul project reports. The summary of the August 21, 1947
meeting of the Fort Worth Regional Airspace Subcomittee states
that a few balloons had drifted into the vicinity of Roswell,
creating a potential hazard. It also states:

"It was first thought that balloons would ascend and descend
within the confines of the White Sands presently assigned danger
area and that no further authorizations would be required."

So all it says is that "no further authorization would be
required" by the CAA for these New Mexico launches. It does NOT
say that the project Mogul people chose to ignore some basic
safety procedures initially laid down by the CAA several months

Back on March 20, 1947, the CAA stated that the flights would be
permitted along the eastern seaboard only if 1) skies were clear
below 20,000 feet with at least 3 miles visibility, 2) NOTAMS
were issued at least 12 hours in advance of launch and at the
time of launch 2) the balloons were tracked at all times, with
positions relayed to civilian air authorities at regular
intervals. On April 17, C.S. Schneider of Mogul requested a
relaxation of the restrictions on cloud cover, stating that the
phenomenon they hoped to measure was an infrequent one and
likely to be missed if they waited for cloudless skies.
Schneider's request was not only rejected, but further
restrictions were placed on the launches in the form of
completely clear skies. The important point here is that
Schneider ONLY requested a change in the limitations imposed on
cloud cover, and did NOT request a relaxation of the requirement
to issue NOTAMs.

Then they moved to Alamogordo with its sparser air traffic and
clearer weather. I can find NOTHING in the project reports that
clearly indicates whether or not NOTAMS were issued during June
and July. The April 1, 1948 progress report states that:

"At a meeting on 20 March 1947, the New York Air Space
Sub-Committee prescribed a procedure which was designed to
minimize the hazard to air traffic. Similarly, the Fort Worth
Sub-Committee [in August] established a procedure for flights
made within the Fort Worth Region of the CAA."

It says nothing about whether the March 20 procedures were
suspended in whole or in part when they moved to New Mexico.

The progress report then goes on to say that the balloons were a
potential flight hazard as they descended through levels of air
travel, and that current flights had the following safeguards:
(1) Flights were released only on days of light cloud cover and
(2) NOTAMS were to be issued if the balloon was descending
within designated regions of dense air traffic. Again, it
doesn't say WHEN these current safeguards were placed into
effect, or whether they had been in effect to some degree all
along, starting in March 1947. The wording, however, to my mind,
suggests that Mogul WAS concerned with air safety from the
beginning, and therefore followed some version of the original
CAA safety guidelines in New Mexico.

>It wasn't until balloons started landing all
>over the place in June and July of 1947 that the CAA got
>involved and arrangements were made to issue notifications.

Why did the CAA get involved again? The August 21 summary states
that they were notified by Mogul (more specifically NYU), that
some of the balloons had drifted near Roswell. In other words,
in contacting the CAA, the Mogul people obviously ALREADY
recognized the potential safety hazard. If Mogul was concerned
with safety, they would have instigated safety measures (if they
hadn't already), including the issuance of NOTAMs, as soon as
they realized hazard potential. Either that or they were
dreadfully negligent.

When was the first such instance of a balloon drifting near
Roswell? We all know about the infamous Flight #4, June 4, the
debunking explanation of the later Roswell incident. But there
is no documentation as to where this balloon actually went.
However, Flight #5, launched the next day, June 5, is documented
as drifting directly over Roswell AAF. Furthermore, it was in
its potentially dangerous descent mode, approximately 25,000 to
30,000 feet over the base, and at an even lower altitude further
east of the base. All this information can be gleaned from the
graphs of the flight published in the Air Force Roswell report.

All the Mogul flights were followed by a military airplane,
generally a B-17 which circled underneath. So if Roswell base
WASN'T informed of this flight by issuance of a NOTAM, then we
have the situation where there would have been a major incursion
of this base's very sensitive airspace by both a large balloon
train and an unknown military aircraft. In addition to the air
space violation, base pilots would have been placed into
potential jeopardy by the descending balloon.

This incident could hardly have gone unnoticed at Roswell base.
Plane spotters on the ground would likely have seen both the
unknown B-17 and the balloon train. Any pilots in the air near
the base would likely have done the same. The B-17 also probably
would have shown up on short range approach radar. Flight tower
operators probably would have asked the B-17 for identification,
informed them that they were flying in a restricted area, and
inquired about their business. Because of this breach of base
security, even Marcel's intelligence office might have looked
into it, since it was within their purview.  A report or two
likely would have been written. Somebody with authority, like
the base operations officer or maybe even Col. Blanchard
himself, would have demanded an explanation.

If these things hadn't happen, then Roswell base security would
have been a joke. A Soviet spy could have arranged flights over
this highly secretive atomic bomber base and snapped pictures
with impunity. So the balloon flight with its attendant plane
would have been spotted, explanations demanded, and provisions
put into place to prevent similar future occurrences (such as by
the issuance of NOTAMs)

>I discussed this issue several times with Prof. Charles Moore,
>who headed the NYU balloon team at AAAF, and he states
>unequivocally that they made no notifications in either June or
>July of 1947, and that they didn't "get legal" until September
>of 1947.

No slight of Prof. Moore, but at the time he was just a young
guy right out of grad school and had no need to know what might
or what might not have been communicated about the Mogul project
at higher levels, including to the Eighth Air Force and Roswell.
In fact, Moore says pretty much exactly that in his A.F.
interview (p. 43):

"I think we were just some ignorant, little innocent graduate
student contractors on a military base, and things were going on
that we didn't know anything about."

Then later (p. 49), he says that his balloon launch group didn't
interface with the regular military at Alamogordo at all:

"We were just a little bunch of civilians there on an almost
deserted base, doing what we wanted."

So does Moore really know what Roswell base knew of Mogul in
June/July 1947? Probably not. He wasn't in a position to know.

>Therefore, there is absolutely no reason to think >anybody at
Roswell Army Air Field (RAAF) knew anything about the >NYU
balloon launches from AAAF.

There is EVERY reason to believe that a number of people at
Roswell base knew SOMETHING of these flights, since one violated
their air space as early as June 5, 1947 (Flight #5) and another
came close on July 7 (Flight #11).

>These facts are documented in the CAA correspondence reproduced
>as part of the NYU balloon development reports, which, in turn,
>were reproduced in the Air Force's first report on the Roswell

The fact that a Mogul overflew Roswell base on June 5 is
likewise part of the NYU balloon development reports, also
reproduced in the Air Force's first report on the Roswell

And nowhere in these reports does it say that Mogul violated
basic safety procedures before the CAA issued new guidelines and
Mogul "got legal." Rather, it shows that Mogul first notified
the CAA about potential safety problems with their New Mexico
launches. If they did that, why would they then wait for safety
measures to be mandated LATER by the CAA. Why did initiate them
immediately on their own?

>The CAA correspondence is dated in August of 1947,
>long after the NYU Balloon Group had left Alamogordo Army Air
>Field in early July of 1947. The NYU Balloon Group did not
>return to Alamogordo Army Air Field until September of 1947.

Even IF Mogul chose to ignore basic safety procedures and failed
to issue NOTAMs, Roswell base would still have known about the
existence of the balloon flights right from the gitgo, because
one flew directly over the base on June 5. They could hardly
have missed it, and those involved would have been derelict in
their duty to not inquire further about it. And Mogul would have
been derelict not to issue NOTAMS afterwards, now being fully
aware of the potential for passing through Roswell flight air

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