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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1998 > Jun > Jun 24

Re: Sheffield Incident

From: Max Burns <AlienHype1@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 23 Jun 1998 16:47:28 EDT
Fwd Date: Wed, 24 Jun 1998 00:26:07 -0400
Subject: Re: Sheffield Incident


>Date: Mon, 22 Jun 1998 16:23:04 -0400
>From: David Clarke <dclarke14@compuserve.com
>.Subject: Sheffield Incident
>To: UFO Updates <updates@globalserve.net>

>From Dave Clarke, Sheffield.

>Max Burns becomes ever more desperate in his pitiful attempts to
>pursuade UFO Updates readers to buy his yarn about a UFO, a
>triangle and a pilot covered in aviation fuel.

<snip>

Please note  (The head of a pack of Brownies)

I do not need pity, what I do need is for you to stop looking at
the universe through your little box like view. Readers of
UpDates the evidence of coverup are quite clear due to Mr
Clark's refussal to acknowledge any of the direct witneses to
the triangle. there are five individual witneses to the
triangle,and not three as Mr Clark states who are not my friends
however I do know the first witness to the triangle Emma
Maidenhead.

And with another six witnesses to the glowing orange object, one
of which Mr Clark I know has interviewed Mrs Dronfield, and
during that interview she told Mr Clark that She saw a cigar
shaped object that was glowing orange at about 10.00pm which was
very low and went behind the houses and out of sight. heading in
the direction of High Bradfield which is approx three miles from
snake pass.

Mr Clark is this what constitutes a sighting of an unidentified
flying object, and was it was reported to the police?

Answer: YES

Mr Rhodes saw a glowing orange object and had been looking for a
ufo hotline to report it to, and was it reported to the police

Answer: YES

Mr Morton & Mother Saw an orange glow followed by several
plumes, and was it reported to the police

Answer: Yes

Mr Bryan Haslam, witnessed the triangle Yesterday approx 19.40
traveling on a train back home . States around the Barnsley area
saw a triangle shaped object with lights all around it hovering.
Does not think it was a plane thinks we are wasting our time.
Was this sighting reported to the police

Answer: Yes

Now in paticular to this sighting this man saw the triangle
while it was still light and what does it matter that this
sighting occurred at 19.40 two hours before the bulk of the
sighting's after all it happened approx 10 miles away from the
incident. More importantly every reader of updates must
acknowledge that there was infact a triangular shaped UFO in the
area on the night in question, that was reported to the police.

If all these sighting's were in the police log of the incident.
And in the reply to the question was there any UFO sighting's
reported to the police on either the 24th or 25th of March 1997

As asked by Helen Jackson MP in the Houses of Parliament the
reply was given. There were no UFO report's to the police on
either of these dates reported.

That statement is staring you in the face,  Lies have
been told during questions in Parliament. The evidence is quite
clear

<snip>

>But it will just not wash.

<snip>

What will not wash the official document's we have in our
possession, that confirm that lies have told?

<snip>

>Judging by the amount of messages I have received from readers
>who have offered me congratulations.

<snip>

Whoop E Doooo I got a mail box full of similar email's in my
support, so what?

<snip>

>Paul dared to ask Max a few
>reasonable questions in a private email.

<snip>

Yes Paul and I had some very interesting email exchanges and I
endeavored to answer all the points that he raised with me I
even offered to allow him to interview Emma Maidenhead. Although
before you ask David I showed her your post when it was alleged
that she was dillussional, and she replied you were not there,
and you did not observe the triangle.

Ummm objective ehh, Making comments about witneses you have not
even spoken to, and then when you do speak to a witness to the
UFO you simply ignore it, ( Mrs Dronfield )

<snip>

>If you were to believe Max Burns he is the one and only pillar
>of truth in this case - I am lying, a Member of Parliament is
>lying, the RAF are lying and the Ministry of Defence are lying
>when asked a clear and direct question by a member of the Press
>and by a Member of Parliament.

<snip>

There you go again David misquoting me. I said you are party to
or believing lies being told to our goverment Helen Jackson MP
has been lied to. And I intend to supply Helen Jackson MP with
the full facts including copies of the police log which will
confirm that she has been lied to in the houses of Parliament
and as you were in possesion of the log as supplied most kindly
by myself, you were also aware that there were UFO report's to
the police on the 24th March 1997. You have not been totally
honest have with your local Member of Parliament, Brown
Owl..looks like your camp fire is about to go out, run out of
wood have you, for me it looks like you have already burnt your
bridges.

David could you email me Helen Jackson's office postal address
to me?

<snip>

>But at the end of the day I don't have to prove anything.

<snip>

How very conveinent, you are , so as you see it I or no
one else can question your very neatly packaged report full of
interviews with people who have also lied to Helen Jackson MP

<snip>

>All he can do is launch a vicious attack in response.

<snip>

If the readers of updates would care to do a search of the
updates archive for, item''s posted by, David Clark. Andy
Robert's, Tim Mathews, Mike Wooton, Bufora Watch It will become
quite clear who has been attacking who here. Wooton, Clark and
Robert's are all in the same Brownie pack <snip> >But most
importantly, when challenged to come up with the >evidence to
support his wild claims, all Max can say is:

>"Obviously I am striving towards this goal, and have opened
some >new avenues with regard to obtaining this information. And
as >patience is a virtue, I feel that I will eventually succeed
in >obtaining this proof.. However I do not think that I will be
>supplying you with any such information, after all dont you
>.think that have shared enough of my research with you?"

>What a cop out -

<snip>

You asked a question and I have answered it I do not have that
information at the present but David as you will not even accept
that there were many ufo report's on the night of the 24th
March.

<snip>

>In a disgraceful display of arrogance, Max even goes so far as
>to ask "what is sensitive" about a failed suicide attempt, and
>says he even wants to go and interview the poor man who tried to
>kill himself and has since been labelled a victim of a UFO
>dogfight.

<snip>

In my report I use word's such as shot down, exploded,crashed,
and malfunction, As possibilty's please do not add words to my
report to embelish the circumstances so as to suit you agenda if
you wish to talk about dogfight's then talk about the Tehran
incident. David you dont expect people to believe the suicide
story, if this man had driven out to the Peaks, where was his
car parked? Where did he purchase aviation fuel from? This camp
fire story you are peddling about about suicide attempt's is not
even believable with all the other fact's about this incident
which you continue to ignore, including that Mr Dagenhart was
100% certain that the man he encountered with no doubt in his
mind what he smelled was aviation fuel. "Dagenhart, And I will
put money on that"

<snip>

>The facts are these: the transcript of Max's conversation with
>Dagenhart proves absolutely zilch. What Dagenhart did or did not
>say doesn't matter,

<snip>

But David you were so quick to post to updates, re your
handwriiten notes of your interview which were written off your
short notes as you jumped up from your camp fire to exclaim, Max
Burns has twisted what Dagenhart said, I simply posted the true
and full taped interview which can be verified that I have
infact twisted nothing. and that Dagenhrt had asserted four
times in my interview that the man he encountered was indeed
covered in aviation fuel.

I have my interview on tape, this man is a member of the RAF and
rang the News of the World saying that he was going to lose his
job because of what he had said.

Question why would someone lose there job over some thing that
has not occurred?

How is it that when you post your interview taken after
obviously this RAF employee has been silenced.

From handwritten notes that it is big news and posted to updates
and because in responce to your posting of your RAF Dagenhart
new interview I posted the transcript of my taped interview all
of a sudden you claim.

<snip>

>The facts are these: the transcript of Max's conversation with
>Dagenhart proves absolutely zilch

<snip>

Well lets play the common sense game, I have my interview on
tape and was recorded with permission of Dagenhart, therfore my
interview recorded on the 3rd of May was before he realised that
he was in trouble with the RAF for making comments about a man
he encountered on snake pass was covered in aviation fuel, which
he has asserted that he is 100% certain that it was aviation
fuel. with quotes such as "I will put money on that"

There have been over a dozen ufo sightings ten of the sightings
occurred between 21.45 and 22.05 three of the witneses saw the
jets in pursuit of the triangle between the time frame of 21.50
and 21.55 they said the jets were flying at the same height and
the same direction as the triangle. within a few seconds of the
triangle sighting. the sonic boom's or air explosions occurred
at 21.52 and 22.06 at this time we have got people reporting,
Red flashes then smoke plumes, and an orange glow followed by
several plumes of smoke. within a couple of miles of these
explosions about one hour after the explosions a man is
encountered on snake pass

Quote

Dagenhart	Yes he didn't seem to really know which way
		Sheffield was or what he was doing or anything
		and the thing is I said at the time when I rang the
		police he smelled of diesel fuel, well since then
		I've joined the air force and I'm now working for
		the air force and it wasn't diesel fuel it was aviation
		fuel that he'd got on him.

Burns		Ah absolutely superb

Dagenhart	and I will put my money on that

You cannot purchase aviation fuel, and with the reports of smoke
plumes Red flashes and in close proximity of this UFO all this
happening in a 3-4 sqaure mile area. at exactly the same 15
minute period 21.50-22.06. sonic booms that the RAF will not
admit to causing. A breach of regulations, all sonic occurences
have to be reported within 30 minutes of planes landing.

It has been confirmed in no uncertain terms that the man was
stinking of aviation fuel Lets be clear here Mr Dagenhart told
me he had been spoken to he told me so on the phone....

Lets get it straight here Does this sound like a covert low
flying training mission to you?

<snip>

>This claim does not stand up to any kind of rigorous
>examination. It is quite plainly and simply nonsense, and what's
>more Max knows it is nonsense.

<snip>

More camp fire stories from , but what about all the
evidence?

<snip>

>To deal with some of his other points:

>1. Max's claim I have used his information without
>acknowledgement. That's rich coming from someone who is using
>information about Parliamentary Questions, information on RAF
>jet timetables from RAF Coningsby etc in his Sheffield Report,
>all without acknowledgent to myself.

<snip>

Actually , I got my copy Helen Jackson's questions
and the replies from the House of commons web site search.

<snip>

>Yes, I did obtain a copy of the police log from Max, but so
>what? Max got it from Martin Jeffrey, who got it from the
>police, so it is hardly Max's property, is it?

<snip>

I never said it was my property and as I made a special trip to
Rotherham so you could copy it, and you were the one who decided
to post that i got the log off Marin Jeffrey. Big deal. I still
shared it. what was your point?

<snip>

>What does the police log
>prove anyway, it's just a list of aeroplane sightings.

<snip>

In the police log does it say that the triangle shaped aeroplane
was hovering ?

Quote from the log

Yesterday approx 19.40 traveling on a train back home . States
around the Barnsley area saw a triangle shaped object with
lights all around it hovering. Does not think it was a plane
thinks we are wasting our time.

Or how about the glowing orange plane flew past? Or I saw a
cigar shaped object are these planes?

What the police log does confirm is that there were indeed ufo
reports to the police on the 24th of March 1997 and infact lies
have been told to Helen Jackson MP

<snip>

>2. My report to BUFORA on the case. Max has not seen this
>report, yet he chooses to make wild claims about it and make
>slurs against my ability as an investigator on that basis. Well
>I have news for you Max, I have been around for years before you
>saw your first X-Files episode and then suddenly went on to
>become an "expert", and I will be around an equal number of
>years after you have disappeared like all the other ET believers
>I have seen come and go.

<snip>

you told me yorself what the conclusions of your
investigation.were initially. And with regard to your comment
about me disapearing as Mcaulay Caulkin says.."I dont think so"

I once knew somone who did the same thing for twenty years and
they said they were still crap at it. You see just because you
may have been around for years does not qualify your statements
as more correct, infact perhaps its time for the old guy to
retire and put the camp fire out, return home draw the curtains,
mix yourself a hot cocoa and not need to worry about what is
really going on.

<snip>

>In fact, My report does not in fact conclude a Bolide meteor was
>responsible, it says the Royal Astronomical Society say a bolide
>could have caused the sonic booms reported that night. I
>actually conclude the events were caused by a military aircraft
>and possibly a Bolide meteor.

<snip>

There was no debris in the atmosphere that was there. which has
now been confirmed. I said the Bolide story was a cover right
from the beginning. whether you said it or your dog said it it
was still wrong.

<snip>

>My report states quite clearly
>there was RAF activity that night, well before it was officially
>admitted, and this is a fact I have always believed played a
>major role in the initial stages of the incident. That fact is
>clearly stated in my report which went to Gloria Dixon, BUFORA
>NIC, just two months after the incident. Like it or not, that is
>a fact.

<snip>

Let's see it, or is gone forever into the bowl of the bufora
archive?

<snip>

>3. The Carol Vorderman BBC show. Once again (or at least when I
>spoke to him earlier this year) Max has not seen this programme,
>yet he makes slurs against my character and professionalism
>based upon something he has not even watched! In fact, I played
>no role in the making of the programme.

<snip>

David you were the one, when you were busy quantifying your
expertise to me that claimed you were the consultant on the
programme The same day I shared the police log and my interview
notes with you.

<snip>

>Max as usual behaved
>like a petulent child, took his bat and ball home and turned
>down an invitation to appear on the programme because it would
>not pander to his absurd claims about a Tornado crash.

<snip>

I turned down the offer of assisting the researchers on the
making of the programme, because they had already decided to
report this incident as a ghost plane! I asked Angela Holden
from the BBC, this question if you have allready made your minds
up what has occurred in this incident what do you need my
research for. To which i did not get a responce, I then
considered whether I wanted to have my work used in this ghost
plane scenario and concluded that as it was never a ghost plane
or a bolide or a drug drop that I did not want to have my work
used for the purpose of disinformation.

<snip>

>Ironically, if Max had watched the programme, he would know that
>Glenn Ford, the senior Seismologist from Edinburgh University,
>who actually recorded the sonic booms, goes on record and says
>he believes both the booms and the sightings were caused by a
>Bolide meteor burning up in the atmosphere!


<snip>

Ironically he was wrong

<snip>

>Is Mr Ford now to be labelled a liar, and an agent of the
>cover-up too? And how is it shoddy investigation on my part to
>conclude a Bolide meteor could possibly have played a part in
>the event, when this explanation is supported by both a senior
>Seismologist and the spokesman for the Royal Astronomical
>Society?

<snip>

Ironically you must confirm David that you are also aware that
it has now been confirmed that there was no space debris in the
atmosphere over Northern England on the night of the 24th March
1997 between 21.45 and 22.15./ So they were mistaken and you
believed them thats Irony.

<snip>

>Lets face it the only "expert" who Max will believe is himself,
>or one of his loony friends.

<snip>

The facts above are quite clear, as to the remarks of about my
loony friends, many have degree,s are scientists, physicist's.
and do not need to hear your comments when you do not even know
them more objective comments about people you do not know.

<snip>

>Objective investigators should always apply Occam's Razor and
>look for the most likely explanation first, before jumping to
>fantastic conclusions. In this case, we know both military
>aircraft and Bolide meteors exist, we don't know that ET-piloted
>triangular UFOs exist. Therefore its logical to conclude a
>military jet/Bolide played a part in the incident until we have
>good solid evidence that ET-piloted triangles actually exist.
>I'm sorry Max but it's not good enough to say they exist because
>you believe they do, or because people claim to have seen them.
>People can and do misidentify aircraft and a whole host of
>mundane objects as UFOs every night - that is a FACT, and if you
>can't accept it you should get out of UFOlogy and take up
>science fiction.

<snip>

You are a hardened sceptic and obviously have been listening to
Phillip Klass You have also told me to get out of ufology twice
during your post you really do think you are dont you giving
your order's around, let me tell you somthing Mr Clarke I am
here to stay and In yer face.... Like it or lump it..

<snip>

>3. UFOs and the police log. Max claims there is "plenty" of
>evidence in the police log of people who rang to report UFOs.
>This is simply untrue, as Max's edited excerps from the log
>prove. The log is simply a list of people who saw low-flying
>aircraft. There are no more than a couple of instances in the
>entire log where people describe UFOs, and then they are just
>talking about "lights in the sky" which could be anything, and
>probably were the low-flying aircraft we know were around at
>that time.. With regards to Mrs Dronfield's sighting, I have not
>deliberately ignored it - her sighting appears in the first few
>paragraphs of my article in UFO Magazine, out this week, and in
>my report to BUFORA. I believe she saw an aircraft at an odd
>angle, simple as that. If you look at the time she saw the
>object, it simply must have been the same low-flying aircraft
>seen by the police special constable and the farmers a couple of
>minutes later.

<snip>

David Mrs Dronfield told you that it was cigar shaped and
glowing orange. Can you name a plane that is cigar shaped glows
orange and flies across the back of some houses at an altitude
of less that 200ft and at less than 60mph?

<snip>

>A question for Max arises at this point: Why has Max ignored the
>testimony of Marie-France Tattersfield?

<snip>

I have infact spoken with Taterfield, and she assured me that
there were no militiary jets and was adamant that nothing had
occurred and that there were no ufo's. the funny thing is that
she just turned up one afternoon while I was mooching around the
peaks Taterfield got out of her car on a dam and asked myself
and Miles Johnston what we were doing. Miles replied that we
were investigating a ufo incident. This was in April without
even taking the time to ask the date Of the reported ufo
incident, Taterfield replied sharply with there was no Ufo's, I
asked her how did she know that when she did not know the date
of the ufo incident we were investigating. On that she had no
response and got back in her car with her Former military what I
assume was her husband and another Person, The strange thing
about this chance meeting was that after she had asked her what
are you doing question. I asked her who she was and she replied
Marie France Tatershall, the normal response would have been to
ask who I was but she did not, it was as if she already knew who
I was. It's a funny old World, dismissing an incident which we
were Investigating without knowing the date

<snip>

>With regards to Brian Haslam, his sighting of a "triangle" UFO
>is the only one recorded in the police log, and it took place at
>7.40, more than two and a half hours BEFORE the report of the
>"crashed aircraft". You cannot use this as evidence of anything,
>and what's more Max has not spoken to Haslam, therefore his
>evidence is useless - just more hearsay.

<snip>

Just a coincidence was that on the night of multiple triangle
Sighting,s this man calls the police and tells them.

Quote

saw a triangle shaped object with lights all around it hovering.
Does not think it was a plane thinks we are wasting our time.

Well there's no smoke without fire David I am going to stay in
ufology for long time So get used to it .

Max Burns


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