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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Apr > Apr 4

Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

From: Brad Sparks <RB47Expert@aol.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 23:58:22 EST
Fwd Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 03:45:51 -0500
Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Date: Fri, 02 Apr 99 21:39:15 PST
>Fwd Date: Sat, 03 Apr 1999 01:08:38 -0500
>Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

>>Date: Fri, 2 Apr 1999 17:36:57 +0100
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
>>Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

>>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>>From: Serge Salvaille <sergesa@connectmmic.net>
>>>Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate
>>>Date: Thu, 01 Apr 1999 21:23:24 -0500

>>>>Date: Thu, 1 Apr 1999 15:13:35 -0800 (PST)
>>>>From: Scott LeGrand <varelse@best.com>
>>>>To: updates@globalserve.net
>>>>Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

>Patient and gentle listfolk:

>>Of course we're not talking about specific cases, because as has
>>been proved over and over again here on UpDates, the ETHers are
>>unable to come up with any cases that they are prepared to list
>>as evidence for extraterrestrial intervention. Instead we get
>>airy-fairy armwaving about the "weight of evidence".


>And yet, curiously, John was kind enough to give a good review
>to my UFO Encyclopedia, which is full of solid cases recounted
>in detail, along with extensive bibliographic citations for
>further reading. Likewise the basic works in the serious UFO
>literature, with which John is either unfamiliar or, more
>likely, being wholly disingenuous about, relate those great
>cases that John so wishes out of existence. And why, given his
>shaky intellectual position, shouldn't he?  I mean, whom would
>any sensible person trust on, say, the RB-47 case? Brad Sparks
>or John Rimmer?  Or the McMinnville case?  Sparks and Bruce
>Maccabee, or Peter Rogerson?  The Coyne case?  Jennie Zeidman or
>the PSH's favorite debunker, Phil (Ufology Is Tantamount to
>Communism) Klass? The patterns in the data?  Mark Cashman or
>Martin Kottmeyer?  EM cases? Mark Rodeghier or any Magonian you
>can name?  Science and the UFO evidence?  James McDonald and
>Michael Sword or the most touchingly devout PSHer you can think



>Jerry Clark

Dear Jerry & List,

Opponents of ETH are right in the sense that currently no
consensus list of best UFO cases has been developed.  But they
are wrong in the sense of insinuating no such lists have ever
been compiled in the past and that skeptics have _never_ had a
fair opportunity to tackle ufology's best evidence. In fact, the
infamous Condon Committee's lengthy catalog of cases it could
not explain as of 1968 still remains virtually untouched by the
skeptics after 30 years (see "Sightings, unexplained" in the
Index, CR, p. 961b).

Lists of UFO best evidence cases based on surveys of UFO
organizations and researchers were published long ago by Vallee
in 1966 and Ron Story & Richard Greenwell in 1981.

By presenting these lists I am _not_ endorsing the decisions
made by the many UFO researchers polled, and in fact I do not
accept the ETH, but endorse the OEH (Objective Existence
Hypothesis) which is that an unexplained physical phenomenon
does exist.  I am not ready to present a full Best Case list for
OEH, though I would certainly put on such a list the RB-47 case
(see the revised UFO Encyclopedia), the Trent/McMinnville stereo
photos, the Rogue River, Oregon, sighting, the June 6, 1949,
Killeen Base observation network sighting (world's first UFO
triangulation), Gemini 11 astronaut sighting and photos,
Skylab-3 astronaut sighting and photos, and the Cash-Landrum
case.  For pure visual sightings without photographs or
instrumentation such as radar or magnetometers, I use an initial
screening criterion that requires sighting report data in a case
from both of at least two witnesses observing a UFO for at least
1 (one) full minute in which the object is at least a Full Moon
angular diameter (with no gaps or "connecting the dots" to try
to make it a Full Moon or 0.5 deg in length, it has to be a
"diameter" all way around at minimum).

Here are the lists the skeptics all but ignore, and I would
estimate that at least _one-third_ of the cases remain
unexplained or unmentioned by skeptics (who usually never
mention the lists themselves).  Klass mentioned the Vallee list
in his Socorro case chapter in UFOs Explained but ignored the
rest of the list even when discussing some of the remaining
cases.  Several were tackled by the Condon Committee without

Jacques & Janine Vallee, Challenge to Science (1966)
Survey of 29 U.S. UFO organizations (about 13 responding) of
Most Significant or Convincing UFO Sightings

1.  Socorro, NM, Apr 24, 1964  (Zamora case)
2.  Washington, DC, July 19-20, 26-27, 1952
    (Wash National Airport)
3.  Trindade Island, Brazil, Jan 16, 1958  (IGY photos)
4.  Mt. Rainier, Wash, June 24, 1947  (Kenneth Arnold case)
5.  Ft. Knox, Kentucky, Jan 7, 1948  (Mantell case)
6.  Southwest U.S. (Texas), Nov 1957  (Levelland etc.)
7.  Kinross AFB, Mich, Nov 23, 1953  (jet disappearance)
8.  Rapid City, SD, Aug 5-6, 1953  (radar-visual jet case)
9.  Lubbock, Texas, Aug 25, 1951  (Lubbock Lights photo)
10. Newport News, VA, July 14, 1952  (Nash-Fortenberry case)
11. Boianai, New Guinea, June 26-7, 1959  (Father Gill case)
12. Fort Itaipu, Brazil, Nov 3, 1957
13. Salem, Mass, July 16, 1952  (Alpert photo)
14. Red Bluff, Calif, Aug 13, 1960
15. Washington, DC, May 29, 1950  (Capt Sperry case)
16. Goose Bay, Labrador, June 30,1954  (BOAC radar-visual)
17. Rome, Italy, (Oct 28, 1954 ??)
    (radar-visual?? Clare Booth Luce??)
18. New Jersey, (Apr 24, 1964 ??)  (Wilcox contactee ??)
19. Montgomery, Alab, July 24-5, 1948  (Chiles-Whitted case)
20. Ubatuba, Brazil, Sept 1957  (magnesium physical evidence)
21. McMinnville, Ore, May 11, 1950  (Trent case photos)

Nos. 2, 8, 16, 20 and 21 were investigated by the Condon
Committee and 2 of the 5 remained _unexplained_ (nos. 16 and
21), Goose Bay and McMinnville.

Ronald Story with J. Richard Greenwell, UFOs and the Limits of
Science (1981) Oct 1979 Survey of 90 Leading UFO Researchers (33
responding) Strongest UFO Evidence on Record

1.  McMinnville, Ore, May 11, 1950  (Trent case photos)
2.  Great Falls, Mont, Aug 15, 1950  (Mariana film)
3.  Newport News, VA, July 14, 1952  (Nash-Fortenberry case)
4.  Lakenheath AFB, Eng, Aug 13-14, 1956
    (multiple radar-visual)
5.  Levelland, Texas, Nov 2-3, 1957
6.  Trindade Island, Brazil, Jan 16, 1958  (IGY photos)
7.  Boianai, New Guinea, June 26-7, 1959  (Father Gill case)
8.  Whitefield, NH, Sept 20, 1961  (Betty & Barney Hill case)
9.  Exeter, NH, Sept 3, 1965
10. Ravenna, Ohio, Apr 17, 1966  (Spaur chase case)
11. Mansfield, Ohio, Oct 18, 1973  (Coyne helicopter case)
12. Tehran, Iran, Sept 19-20, 1976  (Iranian jet case)
13. New Zealand, Dec 31, 1978
    (New Zealand film multiple radar-visual)

All three of the cases on this list that had been investigated
by the Condon Committee, Nos. 1, 2 and 4 (McMinnville, Great
Falls, and Lakenheath) remained _unexplained_ after
investigation by the Condon Committee.

The only case that appears on all three lists, Vallee 1966,
Condon Committee 1969, and Story-Greenwell 1981, is the
McMinnville photo case, about which I plan to post an update

Brad Sparks

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