UFO UpDates
A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
'Its All Here In Black & White'
Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Apr > Apr 5

Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

From: John Rimmer <magonia@magonia.demon.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 21:51:20 +0100
Fwd Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 21:41:56 -0400
Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate

>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Re: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate
>Date: Sun, 04 Apr 99 14:23:13 PDT

>>Date: Sat, 3 Apr 1999 22:22:07 -0500
>>From: Peter Brookesmith Mendoza <DarkSecretPB@compuserve.com>
>>Subject: Friedman vs. Krauss Debate
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>

<Lots of elegant Wildean wit and repartee snipped throughout>

>In fact, if he could read better, he would have seen that my
>posting was just a light-hearted response to a dumb,
>self-serving statement John Rimmer, who is not ordinarily dumb
>or self-serving, had made.

Dumb? Self-serving? Moi? A couple of people, undeterred by
Jerry's dismissive attitude to a reasonable request for "good
cases" have replied in other postings and quoted cases which
they think cannot be put down to mundane causes. This may be so,
and I am sure that Magonia or the Magonia Monthly Supplement,
will look at some of these cases in detail.

However my request was for cases which were indicative of
extraterrestrial intervention, not simply puzzling "unexplained"
cases. Some of these cases may be indicative of an "Objectively
Existing Phenomenon", be it earthlights, secret aircraft,
electromagnetically created plasma, or what you will. But a
puzzling unexplained case simply means that we don't have all
the evidence. It does not mean that it represents
extraterrestrial intervention.

> I have written at length on the PSH
>(of which John is a leading and articulate advocate), skeptics
>and debunkers, and the hard evidence for UFO reality elsewhere,
>in books and periodicals some of you, though apparently not
>Peter, have read.  Those who want a full accounting, and a
>serious, detailed examination of these issues, are referred to

Just one point Jerry: what do you mean by "UFO reality"? Surely
we all accept that UFOs are a real phenomenon, otherwise we'd be
doing something more constructive like macrame or seeing how
many pints of Fuller's ESB we could sink without falling over!
This is the sort of careless phrase, repeated without defining
it, that causes endless confusion.

>>My point: Statement. Nowhere in John Rimmer's post do we
>>find an attempt to promote the PSH. Nowhere, even, do we
>>find it mentioned. What we find when we look, and read, and
>>mark, and learn, is an asseveration of a truth universally
>>acknowledged, that those fallen into a sympthay with the
>>extra-terrestrial hypothesis (ETH) have been reluctant to
>>produce - even recusant on the matter, as in the Boy
>>Bishop's case - specific UFO cases that are especially
>>suggestive of an ET "solution". Last time around Mark
>>Cashman had the balls to offer a list. This time Bruce
>>Maccabee unzips his list and stands up [sic] to be counted,
>>and finds he has more than ten. Good. Now let ten or more
>>brave souls do likewise, and perhaps, variegated as these
>>individual lists may be, we may find ten that all include.
>>Then we can set-to on them, at least.

>>My point: Variation. All this waffle, which verges on the ad
>>hominem, to which we know the Boy Bishop is ever too pure to
>>descend, about librarians and English majors (I am pleased
>>to be neither, so remain slightly baffled, if very bored
>>indeed, with the tireless repetition of this old saw)

Yes Jerry. What is this thing you have about librarians? I would
suggest that being in a job where every day you are confronted
by the mass of the general public in all their many forms,
trying to provide information on almost every topic under the
sun, and grappling with some of the most devious people on earth
when it comes to getting the fines for overdue books out of
them, would be quite good experience for a ufologist.

> does
>>nothing to dispose of John's point that skeptics he has
>>known (in the UK at least) have come to their current
>>condition, perhaps best characterized by Raymond Cahndler's
>>[sic] phrase "the dewy-eyed innocence of used-car salesmen",
>>through hard work and wide experience. Helpful advice from
>>the Boy Bishop for such good folk to "really get out more"
>>is at best supercilious, at middle oblique, at worst plain

>That was a _joke_ about getting out, guy.  Lemme repeat: a JOKE.
>In point of fact, I know from personal experience (subject, of
>course, to psychosocial exegesis and the usual blather about the
>worthlessness of anecdotal testimony) that John Rimmer gets out
>at least once in a while, because on one pleasant occasion I
>spent an evening with him in a Chinese restaurant in London.

It was a joke? Ha, ha! There, I feel better now. You still don't
address my point that most sceptics active in the UFO field have
come to their position *after* having been researching, reading
and investigating for a considerable length of time. Their
scepticism has arisen as a result of their research and has not
been an a priori position.

People like Andy Roberts, David Clarke, Hilary Evans, Thierry
Pinvidic, Bertrand Mehurst and even Old Uncle Mendoza and all,
have spent plenty of time out of their armchairs doing
investigations, and just as much in deep leather-bouind comfort
reading the same reports and case histories that Jerome Clark

I say this simply to point out that the wicked sceptics are not
a strange species parachuted into the world of ufology from who
knows where, but ufologists who had considered the evidence as
much as everyone else, and dared to come to a different
conclusion to Clark and Co.

In conclusion, I think it unfair of Peter to call Jerry a
Bishop. Such is his sense of his own infallibility he is clearly
Pope Jerome!


John Rimmer
Abandon hope all ye who press Enter here

[ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ]
This Month's Index |

UFO UpDates Main Index

UFO UpDates - Toronto - Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp

Archive programming by Glenn Campbell at Glenn-Campbell.com