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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Apr > Apr 6

Re: Kraus vs. Friedman

From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 13:48:12 -0400
Fwd Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 20:26:50 -0400
Subject: Re: Kraus vs. Friedman


>Date: Mon, 05 Apr 1999 23:13:00 -0500
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
>Subject: Re: Bulgarians From Outer Space

>At the same time, if you had actually met a Bulgarian, there
>would no doubt be several ways or mechanisms by which you could
>demonstrate same to any objective observer (such as myself). In
>which case, end of argument. Yes, you indeed encountered a
>Bulgarian, from Bulgaria, a country which we mutually agree
>exists and contains numerous inhabitants. All I need is a
>surname, passport, street address and phone number, along with a
>social security number, assuming the Bulgarian equivalent of
>same exists, along with a birth certificate, and I can
>presumably confirm your account. In short, I would be forced to
>agree and admit that you had indeed encountered a Bulgarian,
>even if I had never encountered one myself.

Hi, Dennis.

Today I was out walking, and -- such serendipity -- encountered
a Bulgarian. I knew he was Bulgarian because he wore a big sign
saying so, with full display of his passport, address, and so
on, so anyone could confirm his identity and origin. "Alien from
Bulgaria!" read the sign. "Not from UFO, with blue beam to
abduct!"

Of course I stopped to chat with him. And since I happened to be
carrying --- serendipity, once again -- a printout of your
message, I showed it to him, and asked him what he thought.

His first reaction surprised me. (I might stress that he was
remarkably urbane, wearing a silk Armani suit, and on his way to
a restaurant so trendy that I'd never heard of it. He spoke
English with great relish, but also with a rich Bulgarian
accent, which I've attempted to reproduce here.)

"Denisov," he said, looking with a perplexed smile at your name.
"Denisov! Is relation to Communist leader in Bulgaria many years
ago?"

"Edison Denisov!" I replied. "A well-known figure in the
Communist International! But this, I'm afraid, is someone else.
Dennis, you see, is his _first_ name."

"I read anyway," said my new friend, and he pored over your
words, alternating smiles with scowls.

>But what if you told me that that selfsame Bulgarian had
>abducted you at night in a beam of light, transported you
>through your apartment wall with no harm, sucked out your sperm
>and used it to create a hybrid baby, or clone, all the while
>entertaining you with stories of imminent terrestrial apocalypse
>and other environmental catastrophes, leaving you with scoop
>marks and episodes of missing time, all of which were originally
>initiated at the age of five or less, and which still continue,
>aided and abetted by a host of other unusual entites, including
>praying mantises and humans dressed in uniforms...well, wouldn't
>you think that a bit _odd_, Bulgaria-wise?

>Wouldn't you agree that at some point we're no longer talking
>about Bulgaria -- or Kansas -- as we know it? And that it's up
>to you (or others) to provide some convincing evidence of this
>Ur-Bulgaria?

"Denisov talking here about apple and pear," said the Bulgarian,
when he reached this point in your message. (He didn't remember,
I guess, that we say "apples and oranges.") "You never say alien
here. Not in Bulgaria, not in US, not on earth. Denisov have fly
in hat about abduction?"

"Bee in his bonnet," I grinned back. "I think you've got that one
right."

>>What are the chances of encountering aliens here on earth? We
>>don't have a clue. We don't know how many intelligent races
>>there are in the galaxy, or, in fact, if there are any at all.
>>If they do exist, we don't know if they travel from star to
>>star. If there's a concentration of them, but very distant from
>>us, maybe they're less likely to come here. But if there are
>>spacefaring aliens on a planet of Alpha Centauri, just four
>>light years away, then they might well visit here, even if they
>>face the same limitations on interstellar travel that we face,
>>at our present level of technology.

>Actually, we do have clues, beginning with the "failure" of
>SETI; see also the Mike Davis article in The Anomalist 5. Of
>course we can't prove that there's no other intelligent life out
>there anywhere at this point -- just as the largely anecdotal
>abduction accounts don't prove that there is.

"Apple and pear, apple and pear! Where you say abduct in
message?" (He meant, of course, the message Dennis was responding
to.)

"Denisov also leap to ending." ("Jump to conclusions," he meant,
of course.) "So-called SETI failure prove nothing. Maybe only
mean alien not use radio. Mike Davis article in esteemed journal
Anomalist [they read it even in Bulgaria, Dennis!] only theory.
Not give clue to data. Data appple, theory pear. Different thing!
Many theory wrong. Denisov smart man, know that. Why he think
Mike Davis theory give clue to data when not proved yet right or
wrong?"

>>Since we don't know any of this -- since we have no data at all
>>about alien races -- then we can't estimate the probability of
>>alien visits. Anyone who tries it is simply guessing.

>Well, yes. But wouldn't this also include those
>abductionoligists who allege that millions of Americans are
>being abducted on a regular basis, and have been for
>generations? I'm willing to concede that I can't estimate the
>probability of alien visits if they will.

"Apple and pear!" the Bulgarian once again exclaimed. "Peach and
carrot!" Now he was truly distressed. "Abduct investigator not
guess probability alien visit. Say alien here! Different thing!
Not say is likely alien here, or is unlikely alien here. Not
need know how probable, to say alien here. Denisov say alien not
here, fine, he have own opinion. But different thing from
guessing probability."

>>And since we can't know what scientific advantages we might make
>>in the next hundred, thousand, million, or billion years, we're
>>in no position to make assumptions about what technology aliens
>>might have. There might, for all we know, be scientific paradigms
>>that go beyond Einstein, just as Einstein went beyond Isaac
>>Newton. Advanced races might find interstellar travel much easier
>>than we think it is. Or they might not -- but there's no way we
>>can know.

>Well, yes, but if you're going to adhere to this viewpoint you
>might as well say anything or nothing at all. You might also ask
>yourself, while you're at it, if they're so goddammed advanced
>then what could they possibly need or want from us at all? Why
>would they friggin' bother?

>Let's concede that they _are_ a billion years in advance of us.
>(Which is where you want to have your cake and consume it, too.)
>Having now conquered interstellar travel in that interval, where
>else would they be scientifically deficient? What _possible_
>interest could they have in us at all, let alone some sort of
>cosmic "need", never mind a sharing of environmental concerns? A
>billion years headstart (which is a pretty long piece of time by
>anyone's standard) and they still haven't figured out how to
>plug a planetary ozone hole, engineer their own genetic code, or
>improve on the Prime Directive? The Bulgarians from Outer Space
>(BOS) still need our puny outdated sperm and ova?

"Red fish! Red fish!" the Bulgarian cried, upon reading further.
Of course he meant "red herring," but I wasn't about to correct
him, not even in New York City, home of millions of people
descended from Jewish immigrants, who (like my own older
relatives) all loved herring.

"You not say abduct aliens, even if real, are billion year
advanced," he continued, now in a calmer, more reasonable tone.
"Maybe thousand year, ten thousand year. Nobody know."

And he added something that showed he himself reads The
Anomalist. "You already say in Denisov own fine journal,
Anomalist, that maybe science not go in straight line. Maybe
alien discover technology not work sometimes, need older way,
use actual sperm, also egg. Even human find that now. Fake food,
like Tang drink, not taste so good, still grow real food from
tree and soil. Denisov not read own magazine!

"But if talk about alien, advanced billion years, can only
guess. Denisov silly, think he know what billion-year alien can
do."

And with that, the charming -- and, let me once again stress,
urbane, despite his accent -- Bulgarian took his leave of me,
since he'd already made himself late for lunch. He walked off
down the street, still shaking his head about the madcap
"Denisov." I could hear him muttering, "Peach and carrot! Red
fish! Apple and pear!"

Greg Sandow



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