UFO UpDates
A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
'Its All Here In Black & White'
Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Jan > Jan 18

Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

From: Gary <galevy@pipeline.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 19:44:06 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 11:13:39 -0500
Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation

>From: Greg Sandow <gsandow@prodigy.net>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: 25 Rules of Disinformation
>Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 23:34:14 -0500

My remarks in this message will be in response to Mr. Sandow's
message of January 9th.  I have edited Mr. Sandow's comments
for space.

A few preliminary remarks are in order.  Here at last we get to
something of actual interest from my critics, as lame as it is.
First, we decline from "proof" to "real evidence," which I
interpret as "evidence convincing to me," or in this case, to
Mr. Sandow.  The big hidden issue here revolves around the
concept of "burden of proof."  That is, Dr. Hynek acted as an
intelligence agent while he was taking money from the Air Force
(and possibly from other agencies, as I have pointed out
earlier) for years. You would have to be blind not to be able to
see this in the record.  Now, why should I believe that he
STOPPED doing this sometime around 1969 after the Condon group
(now KNOWN to have been at least in part CIA-sponsored) gave the
Air Force an out?

As we have seen, Dr. Hynek was effectively "blown" by the 1966
Michigan Swamp Gas incident, as was the Air Force itself, where
UFO debunking was concerned.  It could have become necessary to
change the program, drastically, after those events, before
continuing it in other ways.  The burden of proof in this area
is, at least in part, on the defenders of Dr. Hynek, I'm afraid.
A very strong circumstantial case exists for an unfortunate
interpretation, a case that my critics simply refuse to

Below we examine Mr. Sandow's remarks, preceeded by a single
arrow.  My comments are immediately below.

>Evidence is evidence and proof is proof. Sometimes they are the
>same. Sometimes they are not. It all depends on the validity of
>the argument that supports the evidence and vice versa.

You know, this is the kind of thing that just stops one in his
or her tracks.  As my young niece once said to me, "Some dogs is
boy dogs, some dogs is girl dogs, and some dogs is just dogs."
In any event, it is a breakthrough of sorts to have Mr. Sandow
admit that absolute "proof" is not going to be obtained in this
area and something like "weight of evidence" is going to rule.

>Here's a list of things that might provide real evidence that
>Hynek was an intelligence agent:

>1. He told somebody that he was.

Well, this COULD be evidence for Mr. Sandow but I see a slight
flaw.  Suppose, for instance, that I said Dr. Hynek told ME that
he was an intelligence agent!  Case closed.

>2. Among his papers we find correspondence between him and
>intelligence officials, confirming his involvement.

Well, we have something very much like this, for 1952.  Using
his cover for status as an astronomer Dr. Hynek spoke with
fellow astronomers who "were not aware anything more than a
personal private talk between astronomers was going on".  These
conversations were filed by Dr. Hynek as "Special Report on
Conferences with Astronomers on Unidentified Aerial Objects to
Air Technical Intelligence Center Wright-Patterson Air Force
Base". [pp. 268-285 Project Blue Book edited by Brad Steiger
Ballantine Books, NY 1976] This document was classified until
the Blue Book documents were released.  It is not a scientific
report, scientists don't do their research or publish their work
this way.  It's an intelligence agent's report and was filed and
treated as such.  In the trade he was working as what is known
as a "vacuum cleaner."  As for the period after 1969, such a
find would be a windfall beyond my imagination since I don't
believe to Dr. Hynek to have been stupid, especially after
having read Vallee's comments on the good doctor's files.

>3. A known intelligence agent whom we know to be honest says
>Hynek was involved.

Now we enter the world of science fantasy; this is EVIDENCE for
Mr. Sandow?!  I want the list of known intelligence agents that
we know to be honest -- and everyone else here does, too! Those
who wish to know why this is true, how intelligence
organizations function, agents are trained and operate owe it to
themselves to read "Portrait of A Cold Warrior - Second Thoughts
of a Top CIA Agent" by Joseph B. Smith, G.P. Putnam's Sons, New
York, 1976.

>4. Somebody we trust overheard Hynek in conversation with known
>intelligence agents.

This would be good, for some people.  But intelligence agents
always have cover, for just this purpose.  Hynek could have been
talking about the weather, and probably would be, unless he was
incredibly stupid, which he was not.  Then, of course, he had
long and continuing contacts with Mr. Larsen, a former CIC guy,
but that doesn't cut any ice around here!

>5. In the files of some intelligence agency, we find documents
>saying Hynek was an agent.

Gee, we have this, for the year 1952, unless you're blind!

>6. Among Hynek's papers we find cancelled checks from an
>intelligence agency. (Unlikely, I'm sure. They'd find less
>traceable ways of giving him money.)

Check out Thornton Page's statement vis-a-vis a CIA paycheck! To
even suggest such nonsense is, well, classical debunkerism.
Thorton Page's correspondence can be viewed on the CUFON web
site:  http://www.cufon.org

It's included in the other verified documents section.

>Everything on this list is tangible.  Everything points
>directly to Hynek's involvement. I could also imagine less
>tangible kinds of evidence. For instance, what if people in
>the UFO community sometimes saw Hynek deep in conversation
>with unknown people?

You know, the whole trick was that for years and years no one
saw Dr. Hynek in conversation with his "Air Force" superiors
because those conversations were (and are) secret, which is just
about the whole point!

>What if he never told anyone what those conversations were
>about?  What if he brushed off all questions?  What if he
>sometimes disappeared for hours at a time, and never told anyone
>where he went?

You know, for years and years Hynek flew to Wright Field, and
told Vallee that all he did was attend boring parties with the
Air Force officers there.  Convinced now?  And Hynek had a
years-long history of doing things a lot more interesting than
Mr. Sandow's sophomoric catalog above, that's for sure!  What
does that say?  I'm sure that Mr. Sandow has no idea.

>Of course, that would only prove he had things in his life he
>didn't want known. They wouldn't prove his unknown life
>involved intelligence work. Gary, of course, doesn't even
>have anything this specific. All he has is speculation.

It is NOT speculation for the 1950s, not at all.  And we find
some very interesting items in Vallee's _Forbidden Science_, for
those who will take the time to look them up.  And there are
many other item's that I am saving for later because the boy
scouts on this list don't deserve them!  What a joke!

Long description of a 1968 Chicago incident snipped, a
description of an incident at a purported CIA office in that
city.  The office supposedly had cover involving the title "gear
locker."  There are several interesting aspects of Mr. Sandow's
description but they are not relevant to this discussion.

>Gary, did anyone ever see Hynek enter this federal building,
>and take the elevator to the floor where that "gear locker"

>Greg Sandow

Gee, Mr. Sandow, I don't know!  What a shock!  Obviously my
life's work is crushed by this massive attack on my position!
What can I possibly do to recover!  Holy Cats, I'm ruined!

Or maybe, just maybe, and I know it's a long shot, but perhaps
Dr. Hynek made his connection at Wright Field, or on the phone,
or through the mail, or in the house of one of his academic
colleagues, like Dr. Menzel, now known to have been an NSA wonk
for years.  Now, I know, it's all I have left, but I take
whatever comfort I can after being destroyed by the level of
argument exhibited by Mr. Sandow.

Gary Alevy


[ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ]
This Month's Index |

UFO UpDates Main Index

UFO UpDates - Toronto - Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp

Archive programming by Glenn Campbell at Glenn-Campbell.com