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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Jan > Jan 24

Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:10:34 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:45:56 -0500
Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

>Date: Thu, 21 Jan 1999 15:59:09 +0000
>From: Robert A. M. Stephens <sti3818@montana.com>
>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?
>>Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1999 22:36:07 +0000
>>From: Dave Ledger <dledger@cableinet.co.uk>
>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
>>Subject: Re: R.A.M.S. - A Parting Shot?

Dear Errol,R.A.M.S, and listmembers,

In response to my earlier post to the list, Mr Stephens wrote:

>I have answered this in great depth in 9 differnet venues, in
>detail, over and over. Still, I am told I have not.

Mr Stephens, You may have answered these questions elsewhere,
but you certainly did not answer them on this particular list.
Despite what you may assume, I do not follow you around the
internet and therefore had not heard your previous claimed

>It is virtually hopeless. Here it is
>again, you need to get the color tapes of these missions from

I fail to see what difference it makes whether the footage is in
colour or not. The copies that I am commenting on, which I have
watched many many times with great interest, were pretty good
quality. At least good enough to see what is going on without
having to depend on the poor quality internet clips as you

>know this answer is not what you and Kasher and others want to
>hear and for that I have no response. Please look at all the
>tapes and then see for yourself that EVERY mission is embroiled
>with thousands of UFOS, or, gee, there just might be something
>to what that crazy NASA is saying about the missions and ejecta
>from the spacecraft.

Please do not associate me with any other party who has asked
similar questions. The reasons that these questions have been
raised is simply because the explanations do not seem to fit. My
questions to you are perfectly relevent and justified. I am not
a conspiracy theorist but I do feel that things with the NASA
videos may not be what they seem. I will ask you the 64000
dollar question. If there is nothing but debris and ice etc in
these particular videos, can you please explain to me why NASA
have discontinued the live feed from the shuttle missions? That
in itself is highly suspicious and you cannot understand why
people become suspicious of NASA?  What are they trying to hide
by stopping the live transmissions Mr Stephens?

>And knock off the truculent nonsense. Asked a reasonable
>question without the innuendo of you being deceived before you
>even get an answer.

Perhaps if you were not so sarcastic in your posts previously, I
would try to be a little more polite myself.

>After you have seen the tapes, and reviewed them, you will know
>what everyone else knows, inside the agnecy and out. If you
>still 'know that NASA is lying', great. UFOs all over place in
>space around the shuttle. Sounds great to me.

Hmm , a little more sarcasm here too :0)  Where did I state that
NASA was lying?  I am giving you the opportunity to prove to me
that they are not, or you are not. I really do wish I knew what
others within the agency know, but somehow I think this is very

>What you describe suggest nothing without the full color tape
>and a shuttle operator's manual. The ship is in line 90 degrees
>to the plume blast. When the RCS fires, in the color tape, RCS
>number 17, which is firing, at 2.2 pounds thrust at 1000 feet
>per second, egresses from the motor nozzle with a plume fan of
>140 degrees in all arcs. Its effect blast effects the area
>around it in a 179 degree arc. If anything was laying, floating,
>alongside the orbiter, it too would be effected and moved away
>from its original location. It would effect all ejecta in the
>vicinty in varying degrees.

Pretty technical stuff but it still does not fully answer the
question does it? It does not explain why the object changed
it's track for a second time further out. Perhaps you would care
to answer this without asking me again to view a colour tape of
the incident. The tape which I saw the event on was good enough
quality so I fail to see what difference this would make. If I
watch my TV at home and then turn my colour down on my set, this
does not change what is being seen in the picture does it? It
only removes the colour and this is not the topic of discussion
here. > >In the color tape of the whole event, even more ejecta
appears >into the light bowl and is kicked and shot around and
out away >from the orbiters right side. It is a maelstom of
activity. The >tape of the mission, including what is in
question, is in full >color. It is replete with everything one
coul want to knw and it >looks entirely different than the
blurry, scratchy, B & W images >as seen on the net. > You still
have not answered the original question posed Mr Stephens. Also
you wrongly assume that the copy from which I refer was from the

>>Thirdly, when you touched upon the Shuttle missions in your
>>post, you did not even acknowledge the fact that there was more
>>than one anomalous episode connected to the STS-48 shuttle
>>mission. About 6 was it?

>No, 2 distinct events and I covered every single facsimilie of
>the mission. I state this. You state that I didn't. It is your
>call to do your own clicking on the net, which isn't too tough,
>and go to Sightings and others sites where my written and oral
>dissertation is archived. But as I told Roger Evans, I think it
>is virtually hopeless. You will not call JSC and get the tapes,
>you will not research your claims further, Kasher wouldn't even
>consider a little closer look at his BS claims after I offered
>the full color tape for review and lecture at the U of O. Its

You claim that there were 2 anomalous events in connection with
the STS-48 mission. I have 3 seperate clips on the UFO Scotland
website.I have proof of my claims online.  Also You did not
state anything on this list Mr Stephens and this is the means in
which I communicate with you. What was stated elsewhere,
obviously I have not heard before. We do not have the luxury of
free internet time in this country, therefore I do a lot of my
research etc through lists such as this where there are many
learned and educated people. If you do not like answering all
the relevent questions concerned with details you yourself have
claimed knowledge to, perhaps you should not put yourself in the
line of fire. My questions to you are for my research, looking
for further information so please do not suggest that I am not
doing any. I have never said that NASA are lying, I merely
questioned the anomalies in the videos that is all. I only want
the truth and I dont care which it is as long as it is the
truth. You had the chance to convince me but you have failed
thus far I am afraid. My mind is by no means made up on the
video issue and I have not came to any real conclusions, that is
why I asked you to help me with your knowledge on the subject.

>>Also what was the anomalous object recorded on film,leaving
>>Earth at a high velocity on the STS-80 mission? Too many
>>relevent questions left unanswered I think. What I can tell you
>>without being an expert in this field is that this particular
>>incident was definately NOT Ice or Ejecta', so what was it?

>You are correct. It is NOT ice or ejecta, although this material
>is there in the tape at times, but because it is a shroud-LCMR
>cover from the payload bay pallet array for the foil covering
>mounting of the satelitte in the cargo bay before launching that
>you are referencing. In the full color tape of the whole mission
>sequence you can see it all. There are quite a few of items
>that have not, did not clear the cargo bay and the camera has
>registered them.

That is absolute rubbish!  The object I was referring to seemed
to come from a small group of islands on Earth and was nothing
to do with the shuttle at all. I will send you the clip if you
like. A projectile like object eminates from the Earth and goes
upwards at a very high velocity, this is not what you are
describing at all.

>The snide reamark about me having all the answers is flawed and
>wrong. I do not have very many answers on most things, period.
>In regard to some events regarding STS and NASA I have a limited
>number of items to offer. After that, my chest of data is
>finished. I'm not the end line on anything. I offer what I know
>and what I have been exposed to not by intent, over 20 years.
>That is all. When it is done and offered, I am no more than a
>reference. I am not a UFO person.

I made no such snide remark Mr Stephens. I will remind you again
that you were the one who appeared on the scene, here on this
List, and made your claims to have all of this knowledge that we
are obviously interested in. If you do not like to answer the
questions, you should not put yourself in the line of fire. I do
not wish to be unpleasant and I thoroughly appreciate your
reponse to my previous mail also acknowledging that you have
responded to many other posts too. I commend you for that. I am
not trying to be difficult with you either, just trying to do a
little further research on the NASA videos nothing else. I am
trying to get to the bottom of this and do not wish to presume
anything.That would be poor researching would it not?  You seem
to think that I have jumped on other peoples bandwagons as far
as the video footage is concerned but you are wrong. These
questions are my own based on what I have seen in the footage
and I do feel that the questions posed to you are legitimate and
justified ones.

I sincerely thank you for your response Mr Stephens but I must
confess that I had hoped for better answers than the ones that
you have given. I would be happy to talk with you further on
this issue and invite you to e-mail me privately if you wish to
discuss this further. I just want the truth with a good rational
explanation, that is all. Perhaps you will be willing to help
and I am definately open to a good explanation seeing as my mind
is not truely made up one way of the other.

Looking forward to your further response if possible,

Yours sincerely,

               Dave Ledger (UFO Scotland)
If you see someone without a smile......give them one of yours :)
Posted by: Dave Ledger  (mailto:UFOSCOT@cableinet.co.uk)
<A HREF="http://wkweb5.cableinet.co.uk/dledger/index.htm">UFO
ICQ pager      http://wwp.mirabilis.com/4851425
"The sands of time are trickling away from our dear mother Earth
 and yet we continue to fight amongst ourselves and destroy our
natural enviroment,leaving all the mess for our children and their
children's children to inherit when we're gone."

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