UFO UpDates
A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
'Its All Here In Black & White'
Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Oct > Oct 10

UFOR: Project Paperclip/Overcast

From: Francisco Lopez <d005734c@dc.seflin.org>
Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:17:01 -0400 (EDT)
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:28:51 -0400
Subject: UFOR: Project Paperclip/Overcast


From: Chosa <chosa@chosa.com>

I recently had an exchange of emails with Stanton Friedman about
Project Paperclip and it's possible relationship with Roswell
via White Sands and V-2 rockets.  I have been given permission
by Stanton to post our exchanges to the internet.  The following
is a chronological and exact duplication of our exchanges.

Byron Weber

Beginning October 1, 1999, Stanton Friedman and I discussed
Project Paperclip/Overcast and any possible relationship it may
have had with the events at Roswell in 1947.  He has given
permission to post our conversation.

October 1, 1999

Hi Stan,

I was looking over the comments of Bennewitz with respect to
disimformation he may have been feed and one item struck me as
particularly interesting. He stated that the German scientists
in the US following WWII had nothing at all to do with the UFO
thing.  So I researched it.

I found a couple of references to a project in 1946 in El Paso,
TX in which a V-2 was launched, lost it tracking and landed in a
cemetery in Juarez, Mexico.  In 1947, there was reference to an
airforce project assisted by German scientists at White Sands,
NM, to launch a V-2 with primates on board.  An aeronautical
medical board was being assembled and about 230 scientists and
doctors were housed in temporary facilities at Wright Air Field.
By 1949 a high altitude record was achieved, some 250 some
nautical miles with a WAC corporal strapped onto a second stage
capsule.  The record stood for seven years.

Have you come across this information in your research of
Roswell?  If so, can you recommend any source information for
clarification as to the extent of the test flights from White
Sands?  If not, might this offer an explanation for the Roswell
events?

Looking forward to your response,

Byron Weber

October 2, 1999

Byron: I really don't understand the Question. There were indeed
hundreds of German rocket scientists working in NM.at White
Sands(usually Based at Ft. Bliss on the NM -TX border) in the
1946-1950 time period. They were certainly concerned with
Aerospace medicine and trying to use chimps for such research.
This is discussed in hundreds of papers and in books about WSMR.
Naturally it has been discussed as possibly related to Roswell.
There has NOT been any connection established. This does NOT
mean that none of the Germans such as Steinhoff and Von Braun
were called in on Roswell. There were no V-2 Launches that
Match. No monkeys were launched at the time. There is a book The
Holloman Story by George Meeter. There is a base Historian at
Holloman and one at WSMR.

STF

October 4, 1999

Stan,

The question, of course, is whether or not anyone has researched
the V-2 launches from White Sands sufficient to rule out the
possibility that the Roswell incident was actually a V-2/M-42
test.  The M-42 is known to have been considered in manned and
unmanned versions.  However, the records I found are not
detailed enough to draw conclusions and despite the fact that
Von Braun had designed a similar cruise missile mounted on a V-2
which later became the Navaho cruise missile, it seems the
Russians were the ones to develope the M-42 and M-44 Buran
trisonic ramjet missles, manned and unmanned.  There is no doubt
though that plans were designed in 1947 for primate flight by
the air force and the logical method would have been the use of
the V-2/M-2.

The best records I have been able to find lists only a dozen or
so dates for V-2 launches from 46-48.  But, the air force
library records state 64 V-2 rockets flew from White Sands with
some modified as two stage vehicles.

Common sense, if there is such a thing in this day and age, says
the first explanation for Roswell would be a closely guarded air
force project. Still, I don't seem to be able to come up with a
reasonable explanation for the air force protecting such
information except that the concept of "space planes," continues
to be stuff of black projects.

I have several queries out about V-2 launches in New Mexico.  If
anything comes of it, I will let you know.  In the meantime, I
get ahold of the book you recommended.

Thanks, Byron

October 6, 1999

Byron: Many have tried to find a connection between V-2 launches
and Roswell. To date none has been found. Don't forget the
topography... some mountain ranges between WSMR and the Brazel
ranch. It seems to me that "Common Sense" tells us nothing about
what happened.There was plenty of publicity about monkeys and
rockets.If a missile or other "secret" military system had been
launched there would have been radar tracks and search teams
sent out to look for it.  Blanchard would have been informed
etc. There was a chemical rocket fire on July 3.1947, at
WSMR.Launch cancelled. The Public Affairs office  V-2 story fact
sheet says that by June 30, 1951, 67 V-2 missiles had been
launched. The USAF also looked into Missiles as an explanation..
Didn't find anything. Stan

October 6, 1999

Stan, Rockets, Missiles, and Men in Space by Willy Ley has an
appendix with the record, by date, of V-2 firings from WSPG.
None were shown in July 1947 until the 10th.  None were shown
for the month of June..

If there is a connection, it may have been with a classified
Project MX-774. This was an Air Force project with three
objectives, a subsonic self navigating jet plane, an ICBM (5000
mile rocket) and a test missile to be used with the ICBM.
Thrust to weight ratio was a key consideration so to reduce the
weight, one of the contractors Consolidated-Vultee Aircraft Corp
(later) Convair revived an Oberth 1928 patent (also used by the
Germans) to "roll stainless steel so thin it had to be
inflated."

Throughout 1946-1947 there was a political upheaval for control
of nukes and science technology.  The National Science
Foundation was put on hiatus and several bills were introduced
to determine who would maintain control.  On one side was the
military supported to some extent by Forrestal (although they
were fighting one another in a fierce battle for funding) and on
the other side was Bush (Truman's science advisor) and his
buddy's.  Eventually Bush won out with the formation of the AEC
(Johnson-May Bill), just prior to which he publicly denounced
the feasibility of developing anything close to an accurate ICBM
or useful space plane and the Russians were not expected to
develop nuclear capabilities for many years.  There was
considerable public pressure on Truman to cut the military
budget.

After a number of sporatic successful/unsuccessful tests of the
V-2, one which could have resulted in a political crisis (the
one that landed in Juarez, Mexico) and recriminations by Bush,
on July 1, 1947 the Air Force was forced to cancel the MX-774
program due to budget cuts.  Had there been an errant flight and
crash of a rocket/space plane that week, any hope of refunding
the project would have been lost.  Also canceled was Martin's
MX-771, and North Americans MX-770 and Bells MX-776 were limited
in scope and budget.  Despite the cancellation of the project it
was continued with private funding from Convair.  The records of
the event, since the project was officially canceled, would not
have been maintained by the Air Force. The engines for the
project had already been developed in 1946 by Reaction Motors, a
four chambered engine similar to those used on the X-1.  The
rockets were ready and a space plane had already been designed,
in 1946, by Von Braun in a delta wing configuration, not unlike
a design by North American which with was later used in the
Navaho Project and later still redesigned by Lockheed as the
D-21 ramjet drone carried on the A-12.  The Air Force
cancellation of the MX-700 series was eventually rescinded, but
apparently not until 1949.

Now, on the one hand we have most of the components of an
explanation for the Roswell crash in the MX-700 series projects,
in close proximity to Roswell and with an explanation as to why
it would have been covered up.  On the other hand we have an
alien crash which would have occurred at exactly the same time
the project was canceled.  Which explanation is more reasonable?

Byron

October 6, 1999

I can't see anything here that would lead to a missile
explanation for Roswell.The 509th had high security as the only
group ever to have dropped nuclear weapons. The crash sites are
NOT close to where missiles were being launched and you haven't
suggested a launch or why it would not have been tracked by
those doing the testing. There seems to be no connection between
any such program and what happened on the Brazel ranch or out in
the Plains of San Augustin.Yes, certainly anybody would have
desired very thin very strong very flexible metal... so where is
it if it was ours.?

Obviously based on the testimony of a bunch of witnesses, the
more reasonable explanation is that 2 alien spacecraft crashed
and were recovered. If the air force could dig out Mogul, they
could certainly have dug out a test project which was hardly
near Roswell. Surely Southeastern NM would have been a unique
target for alien visitors as the only area of the world  at
which one could check on the 3 technologies clearly indicating
that Earthlings would soon (less than 100 years) he heading to
the stars.. Nuclear weapons (Trinity site), captured high flying
V-2s, and powerful radar. You might want to read my book Crash
at Corona.Evidence takes precedence over hypothesis. STF

October 6, 1999

Stan,

Points well taken.  I have my copy of Crash at Corona in my hand
and I fully intend to re-read it.

Since I have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink to make
my point, I would like to add one curious coincidence that
enlivens the imagination, figuratively the kitchen sink.  The
first real rocket research and launch site used by Robert H.
Goddard with a grant from Daniel Guggenheim and later augmented
by a grant from the Carnegie Foundation between 1930 and 1936
was located at the Mescalero Ranch near Roswell.  Whether or not
it was still in tact in 1947 I do not know, but I will try to
find out.

One other thing, least others tread this gnarled path without
road signs, I would like to make our exchanges titled Overcast
public by posting them.  Do you have any objections?

Thanks Byron

October 7, 1999

No objections. There is a Goddard Museum in Roswell and a
Goddard High School.Well recognized.






[ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ]
This Month's Index |

UFO UpDates Main Index

UFO UpDates - Toronto - Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp


Archive programming by Glenn Campbell at Glenn-Campbell.com