From: Francisco Lopez <firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 17:17:01 -0400 (EDT) Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:28:51 -0400 Subject: UFOR: Project Paperclip/Overcast From: Chosa <email@example.com> I recently had an exchange of emails with Stanton Friedman about Project Paperclip and it's possible relationship with Roswell via White Sands and V-2 rockets. I have been given permission by Stanton to post our exchanges to the internet. The following is a chronological and exact duplication of our exchanges. Byron Weber Beginning October 1, 1999, Stanton Friedman and I discussed Project Paperclip/Overcast and any possible relationship it may have had with the events at Roswell in 1947. He has given permission to post our conversation. October 1, 1999 Hi Stan, I was looking over the comments of Bennewitz with respect to disimformation he may have been feed and one item struck me as particularly interesting. He stated that the German scientists in the US following WWII had nothing at all to do with the UFO thing. So I researched it. I found a couple of references to a project in 1946 in El Paso, TX in which a V-2 was launched, lost it tracking and landed in a cemetery in Juarez, Mexico. In 1947, there was reference to an airforce project assisted by German scientists at White Sands, NM, to launch a V-2 with primates on board. An aeronautical medical board was being assembled and about 230 scientists and doctors were housed in temporary facilities at Wright Air Field. By 1949 a high altitude record was achieved, some 250 some nautical miles with a WAC corporal strapped onto a second stage capsule. The record stood for seven years. Have you come across this information in your research of Roswell? If so, can you recommend any source information for clarification as to the extent of the test flights from White Sands? If not, might this offer an explanation for the Roswell events? Looking forward to your response, Byron Weber October 2, 1999 Byron: I really don't understand the Question. There were indeed hundreds of German rocket scientists working in NM.at White Sands(usually Based at Ft. Bliss on the NM -TX border) in the 1946-1950 time period. They were certainly concerned with Aerospace medicine and trying to use chimps for such research. This is discussed in hundreds of papers and in books about WSMR. Naturally it has been discussed as possibly related to Roswell. There has NOT been any connection established. This does NOT mean that none of the Germans such as Steinhoff and Von Braun were called in on Roswell. There were no V-2 Launches that Match. No monkeys were launched at the time. There is a book The Holloman Story by George Meeter. There is a base Historian at Holloman and one at WSMR. STF October 4, 1999 Stan, The question, of course, is whether or not anyone has researched the V-2 launches from White Sands sufficient to rule out the possibility that the Roswell incident was actually a V-2/M-42 test. The M-42 is known to have been considered in manned and unmanned versions. However, the records I found are not detailed enough to draw conclusions and despite the fact that Von Braun had designed a similar cruise missile mounted on a V-2 which later became the Navaho cruise missile, it seems the Russians were the ones to develope the M-42 and M-44 Buran trisonic ramjet missles, manned and unmanned. There is no doubt though that plans were designed in 1947 for primate flight by the air force and the logical method would have been the use of the V-2/M-2. The best records I have been able to find lists only a dozen or so dates for V-2 launches from 46-48. But, the air force library records state 64 V-2 rockets flew from White Sands with some modified as two stage vehicles. Common sense, if there is such a thing in this day and age, says the first explanation for Roswell would be a closely guarded air force project. Still, I don't seem to be able to come up with a reasonable explanation for the air force protecting such information except that the concept of "space planes," continues to be stuff of black projects. I have several queries out about V-2 launches in New Mexico. If anything comes of it, I will let you know. In the meantime, I get ahold of the book you recommended. Thanks, Byron October 6, 1999 Byron: Many have tried to find a connection between V-2 launches and Roswell. To date none has been found. Don't forget the topography... some mountain ranges between WSMR and the Brazel ranch. It seems to me that "Common Sense" tells us nothing about what happened.There was plenty of publicity about monkeys and rockets.If a missile or other "secret" military system had been launched there would have been radar tracks and search teams sent out to look for it. Blanchard would have been informed etc. There was a chemical rocket fire on July 3.1947, at WSMR.Launch cancelled. The Public Affairs office V-2 story fact sheet says that by June 30, 1951, 67 V-2 missiles had been launched. The USAF also looked into Missiles as an explanation.. Didn't find anything. Stan October 6, 1999 Stan, Rockets, Missiles, and Men in Space by Willy Ley has an appendix with the record, by date, of V-2 firings from WSPG. None were shown in July 1947 until the 10th. None were shown for the month of June.. If there is a connection, it may have been with a classified Project MX-774. This was an Air Force project with three objectives, a subsonic self navigating jet plane, an ICBM (5000 mile rocket) and a test missile to be used with the ICBM. Thrust to weight ratio was a key consideration so to reduce the weight, one of the contractors Consolidated-Vultee Aircraft Corp (later) Convair revived an Oberth 1928 patent (also used by the Germans) to "roll stainless steel so thin it had to be inflated." Throughout 1946-1947 there was a political upheaval for control of nukes and science technology. The National Science Foundation was put on hiatus and several bills were introduced to determine who would maintain control. On one side was the military supported to some extent by Forrestal (although they were fighting one another in a fierce battle for funding) and on the other side was Bush (Truman's science advisor) and his buddy's. Eventually Bush won out with the formation of the AEC (Johnson-May Bill), just prior to which he publicly denounced the feasibility of developing anything close to an accurate ICBM or useful space plane and the Russians were not expected to develop nuclear capabilities for many years. There was considerable public pressure on Truman to cut the military budget. After a number of sporatic successful/unsuccessful tests of the V-2, one which could have resulted in a political crisis (the one that landed in Juarez, Mexico) and recriminations by Bush, on July 1, 1947 the Air Force was forced to cancel the MX-774 program due to budget cuts. Had there been an errant flight and crash of a rocket/space plane that week, any hope of refunding the project would have been lost. Also canceled was Martin's MX-771, and North Americans MX-770 and Bells MX-776 were limited in scope and budget. Despite the cancellation of the project it was continued with private funding from Convair. The records of the event, since the project was officially canceled, would not have been maintained by the Air Force. The engines for the project had already been developed in 1946 by Reaction Motors, a four chambered engine similar to those used on the X-1. The rockets were ready and a space plane had already been designed, in 1946, by Von Braun in a delta wing configuration, not unlike a design by North American which with was later used in the Navaho Project and later still redesigned by Lockheed as the D-21 ramjet drone carried on the A-12. The Air Force cancellation of the MX-700 series was eventually rescinded, but apparently not until 1949. Now, on the one hand we have most of the components of an explanation for the Roswell crash in the MX-700 series projects, in close proximity to Roswell and with an explanation as to why it would have been covered up. On the other hand we have an alien crash which would have occurred at exactly the same time the project was canceled. Which explanation is more reasonable? Byron October 6, 1999 I can't see anything here that would lead to a missile explanation for Roswell.The 509th had high security as the only group ever to have dropped nuclear weapons. The crash sites are NOT close to where missiles were being launched and you haven't suggested a launch or why it would not have been tracked by those doing the testing. There seems to be no connection between any such program and what happened on the Brazel ranch or out in the Plains of San Augustin.Yes, certainly anybody would have desired very thin very strong very flexible metal... so where is it if it was ours.? Obviously based on the testimony of a bunch of witnesses, the more reasonable explanation is that 2 alien spacecraft crashed and were recovered. If the air force could dig out Mogul, they could certainly have dug out a test project which was hardly near Roswell. Surely Southeastern NM would have been a unique target for alien visitors as the only area of the world at which one could check on the 3 technologies clearly indicating that Earthlings would soon (less than 100 years) he heading to the stars.. Nuclear weapons (Trinity site), captured high flying V-2s, and powerful radar. You might want to read my book Crash at Corona.Evidence takes precedence over hypothesis. STF October 6, 1999 Stan, Points well taken. I have my copy of Crash at Corona in my hand and I fully intend to re-read it. Since I have thrown in everything but the kitchen sink to make my point, I would like to add one curious coincidence that enlivens the imagination, figuratively the kitchen sink. The first real rocket research and launch site used by Robert H. Goddard with a grant from Daniel Guggenheim and later augmented by a grant from the Carnegie Foundation between 1930 and 1936 was located at the Mescalero Ranch near Roswell. Whether or not it was still in tact in 1947 I do not know, but I will try to find out. One other thing, least others tread this gnarled path without road signs, I would like to make our exchanges titled Overcast public by posting them. Do you have any objections? Thanks Byron October 7, 1999 No objections. There is a Goddard Museum in Roswell and a Goddard High School.Well recognized.
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