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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Oct > Oct 10

Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Oct 1999 17:31:50 +0000
Fwd Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 11:07:49 -0400
Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 03:14:55 EDT
 >Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >To: updates@globalserve.net

Hiya Jim, list and all. My replies inserted (painlessly) below.

 >>Date: Fri, 08 Oct 1999 09:52:43 +0000
 >>Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >>From: Stephen MILES Lewis <elfis@austin.rr.com>

 >>>Date: Wed, 06 Oct 1999 17:30:38 -0500
 >>>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >>>From: Dennis Stacy <dstacy@texas.net>
 >>>Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...

 >>>>From: Jim Mortellaro <Jsmortell@aol.com>
 >>>>Date: Mon, 4 Oct 1999 17:38:02 EDT
 >>>>Subject: Re: Abductions: A Funny Thing Happened...
 >>>>To: updates@globalserve.net

 >>><mega snip><<

 >>Dennis is getting at the heart of the "earliest recovered
 >>abduction narrative evidence" problem. So many abductees /
 >>experiencers exclaim that they have been having these encounters
 >>since childhood. I don't doubt or discount this possibility.
 >>However, in the absence of confirmatory evidence of any sort (a
 >>diary entry, a parents recall, something) it is very difficult
 >>to take these assertions as 'chapter and verse' with regard to
 >>the actual historic length of the modern bedroom visitation type
 >>encounter phenomena. The evidence in consciousness, memory and
 >>perception research surely casts much doubt on the validity of
 >>this kind of 'recall.'

 >Actually Stephen, I've already told the List in several posts
 >that my parents remember three of the more strange experiences I
 >had as a child in the mid forties.  They remember my story to
 >them the very next morning after it occured and they also
 >vividly remember hearing it for years afterward.  At age three,
 >I did not keep a diary.  So sorry. Neither did my mom or dad.
 >We have only our memories to go by.

Yes Jim, I've read the posts, at least the ones since I've been
subscribed for the last year. I do assign more value to your
experiences, even the early childhood ones, because of the many
factors you are speaking of. In my paragraph above I was
speaking of abductees in general. I'm glad, for your sake, that
you do have confirmatory evidence via your parents; this
certainly would make me personally feel a little more sane if I
had experienced what you describe.

 >There is great doubt over the validity of recall, most
 >especially at the age of two years or three.  But such must be
 >combined with and integrated into the greater history of the
 >individual, and without any such memory aid as hypnosis.  For
 >example ...

 >I very rarely recall dreams for more than a few moments after
 >I've awakened.

 >I have always been able to distinguish between a memory of an
 >event and a dream.  Certain dreams are recurring in the theme.
 >Most of us have them.  The history test is tomorrow and I've not
 >opened the book. Not only that, but I cut every class.  Ad

 >Last, the memories I recall are vivid in great detail for over a
 >half century.

I'm glad you acknowledge the doubt over validity of recall.

About the dreams, have you ever tried repeatedly to begin better
recaling your dreams? As an aside, I find it highly interesting
that every night we each spend several hours in an alternate
reality which while we are there totally convinces us of its
physical reality. And yet we awake from it and impose a form of
amnesia upon it creating missing time.

I didn't suggest that you or any abductee can't distinguish a
dream event from an abduction event. Tho there is referance to a
British woman who reported an abduction which she did dream
after she had watched the abduction episode of the television
show Dallas. I believe this case is from one of Jenny Randles
fine books.

 >Cogito, ergo, so what?   With all due respect.... one memory
 >does not a theory make, not does it substantiate one.

Wasn't trying to make a theory outta my bad memory. For theory,
see my other recent posts under this same thread.

 >My memories are not pretty hazy.  Some are memories of a room
 >with a haze, as if cloudy but the memory is vividly real and in
 >great detail.  I am able to describe the detail of what I saw at
 >age three or four, laying on a table in what I imagined was a
 >hospital room. I'd never been to one.  I was taken there by
 >ambulance.  I'd never seen one, yet the picture is indelibly
 >imprinted in my memory.

 >This particular ambulance took me up into the sky.

 >You speak of hazy memories which someone may call UFO related. I
 >speak of vivid and (to my mind, my intellect and memory) - real.
 >You and I are speaking different languages.  We are on different
 >frequencies. What's your point?

I was simply stating that I've met some abductees who are so
"hazy." Again, I wasn't speaking to your specific experiences.
We aren't speaking different languages.

 >And I can point you to many individuals who share my
 >distinctively real memory in the most intricate matched detail,
 >of things which I described to my parents 50 years ago.  So they
 >didn't write it down. So what?  This makes a difference?  Well,
 >maybe to you.  But not to me my friend out there in the ether.

Yes I'm sure you can. I've met a few myself, having led a
support group for such experiencers for nearly a decade.

For those who seek "objective" evidence it matters a lot. For
someone who has experienced this phenomena it matters little.
It, the presence or lack of physical evidence, makes a
difference to those, like myself and many on this list, who
require more evidence.

We can ask for and look for this evidence and still believe and
know that you and others are indeed experiencing and interacting
with a real phenomena. I can believe you interacted with
something, even an ET intelligence. What I doubt most in all the
cases of abductions and ufo close encounters is the
infallibility of human perception. A person can interact with an
unknown entity, physically and/or psychicly, but that very
perception can be shown to be very maleable from within and
without. (see my perpetual referencing of the bibliography of
the psychoactivity of electromagetics in previous posts)

 >Dennis understands his hell bent for leather view better than you may
 >imagine.  And yet, he understands little about the experiences which
 >he decries.

 >I volunteer.  Any other takers?  Or is there going to be another
 >Challenge, as in the one Velez posed last week.

 >Come on folks. The one piece of evidence most avoided, most
 >referred to as "non evidence," is that of the experiencer's memories.
 >Doesn't matter who it is, postal worker or PhD.  IBM executive or
 >CEO of a fortune 100 corporation. Most don't accept this.  It's not
 >evidence.  To you.... not necessarily "you" personally, but the
 >collective "researcher you!"  AKA, yous.

 >John Velez asked that we all pull together with our evidence and
 >have it evaluated by independent scientists.  That goes for me
 >too when it comes to the so-called "anectotal" evidence.  The
 >testimony of people like me.  Which is as worthless to some
 >(all too many) researchers as swamp gas.  Which by the way,
 >has more validity in some circles.  Swamp gas.  Pelicans.

 >But witness testimony?


 >Before I retired I was CEO of a company, my own, which did a
 >goodly volume with fortune ten companies.  Prior to that I was
 >director of marketing for  multimillion to multibillion dollar
 >firms. Does that make me a better witness to my own experiences?
 >Apparently not.

 >Ah the smell of it.  Stench is more like it.  And what stinks is
 >the truth which some people have in commone with others of their
 >clan.  Their truth.  Which is indisputable.  But not ours. Ours
 >sucks big time.

 >Sour grapes?  Of course.  We use that stuff in our best Gripple.

 >Jim Mortellaro

I'm sorry if you feel our perspectives are so far apart.
Perceptions are powerfully convincing. If we could experience
what you have we would certainly be more sympathetic and likely
to believe the exact same things you do. But I suspect there'd
still be as much debate over the details of what happened and
what it all means as there are now.


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