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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 1999 > Oct > Oct 13

Re: From Maxwell Burns

From: Jonathan Dyton <jon@wibble.powernet.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 19:22:15 +0100
Fwd Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:53:48 -0400
Subject: Re: From Maxwell Burns


 >Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:10:01 -0400
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <updates@globalserve.net>
 >From: Sue Kovios <bradford@globalserve.net>
 >Subject: Re: From Maxwell Burns


 >>Oh, he's been descredited over here on a continual basis for
 >>some time, the damage he's done by making unprovable claims has
 >>annoyed a lot of people - that case wasn't an alien crash
 >>retreval till Max got involved.

 >Where's _your_ proof.

Actually you mean wheres my evidence? And I meant "Alien craft
shooting down an RAF Plane".

Anyway. Now those event's have been the subject of massive
investigation - and a lot of it happened very very quickly
afterwards as well. Quest sent a team over there, the BBC did an
(pretty mediocre but sceptical) episode of one of it's
paranormal type shows on the events (and didn't mention anything
about triangles), there was tons in the Uk forums and in the
magazines at the time that were still quite boyant, but I saw
not one item about the shooting down of an RAF plane.

Now, I can't produce everything written from March '97 until the
first thing by Max saying a plane was shot down in ufological
circles - but if it someone made those claims before Max and
made them publically I haven't seen them in print nor any
reporting of a lecture with those claims. If someone has it'll
be a darn sight easier to produce the one article or piece of
news than for me to produce everything written in that time on
this list! If it exists, then I'm wrong, it's that simple..

 >>No he wasn't - some people swallowed what he said without
 >>questioning or saying "show me the evidence".

 >That's some people, others have questioned and been given
 >answers.

Yes and many people have made nice speeches about freedom of
speech, evidence etc to defend Max's right to talk total
gibberish. I recall the one about "who makes these decision's
about who talks". (Parapharased).

Well. for a start BUFORA - they should have asked to see his
evidence and his talk - then made a decision based on that - ie
there was no case. Also, they should have invited the guys who
solved the case down to balance the arguament. Inviting Max to
make his claims on top of the Alien Film Farce and the upset
subscribers was the final breat of a once well respected
organisation. But I digress. Max has given answers - but from
what I've personaly seen and heard theres no checkable evidence
to prove his claims. And I take no pleasure from that....

 >>A plane is hard to make just disapear - there's records, the
 >>people who fix them etc.  A pilot has a family, birth records,
 >>tax records, friends etc,etc,etc,etc. Can the "spooks" make all
 >>the school records & photo's disapear as well? There has to be a
 >>name for this missing pilot and a number for the missing plane.
 >>Until he produces those he hasn't got a case.

 >Only if someone wants it made available.  They used orphans
 >during the Cold War so no one would miss them.

Still leaves the plane, still leaves a payroll - this wasn't
some Stealth Team but a tornado crew.

According to Max one survived - well wheres his name? Leaves
maintenace records all that sort of thing.

This was an event on the British mainland in peace time. There's
the name of the "alive navigator smelling of aviation fuel" to
come up with ...

 >>When he makes claims and the can't back them up - how many times
 >>must this darn well happen?
 >>When will people learn? how many times have people come into the
 >>field, made claims then when challenged put up a smoke screen,
 >>made excuses, refused to allow the examination of "evidence",

 >Many times.  It seems to be 'company standard' in ufology.

This is my point - People like Max are the problem. -

 >I would like to know what you think Max is putting a screen in
 >front of.  Perhaps this is just convenient timing now that he is
 >in prison and any trace of what he _was_ trying to communicate
 >to us in the field has now vanished thus proving your claim,
 >that there is and he has nothing to prove his claims.

He's had a year or so to do it -since he made the claims. For
him to make the claims he must of had the evidence - that or
he's been sold a right pup by someone or he's wildly
exagerating..

Sorry, I don't beleive he's quietly out of the way - he's now a
martyr to some and he'll be out fairly quickly.

He's out of the way in the same way as Red Ken Livingstone's
been gagged - we hear more from the pair of them now than we
ever did before.. If "they" had wanted to shut him up, I'm sure
a Drugs OD would have been arranged...

 >>Just for a start, it amazes me how many cases there are involving
 >>"military personel" in this field. The witnessesd won't allow
 >>their names to be given to the public, ok fair enough. But then
 >>we get enough told about the witness to identify him to anyone
 >>in the know - I mean how many people can be the driver of an
 >>Alien body from wales down to London in 1974?? That's gonna
 >>stick out........... And people swallow this. Time after time
 >>without asking questions.

 >Are you saying all UFO researchers just sit around with their
 >thumbs up their bums?

Nope - you show me where I say that? Some maybe do now you
mention it, ;-)) I'm saying exactly what I'm saying above- that
I've been to many talks where the identity of a witness is to be
kept secret - then information that would pretty much identify
them to anyone in the know is told - so the public don't know
but the witness superious can clearly identify the "mole" (thats
if what were told is the truth). This just seems plain old daft
to me - and I'm amazed nobody's picked up on it. How many people
can have been part of the SAS, and been the driver of a lorry
taking aliens from a crash in Wales to London or somewhere in
1974? Well, nobody would ever have a chance of identifying
someone from that would they? Thats if they are telling the
truth.

The point is that we don't know who he is, but the people who
he's supposed to be scared of now know he's blabbing all over
the shop..... Maybe it's bad form to ask questions like
these.....

 >Also witness credibility in the community
 >is a reliable way to form an opinion even before doing the
 >research thus less battery of questions.  But even someone who
 >is thought of as less than credible, could still be telling the
 >truth.  It's like 'The Boy Who Cried Wolf' syndrome.  Well he
 >lied about this, and this, and this, and this, and when
 >something really does happen well there's no way he's telling
 >the truth this time, is there?

I agree to an extent - but Max's case was already in tatters ages ago - and
thats the point
I want to make, his case isn't in pieces because he's been banged up - it's
the fact he's not delivered on
requests for how he came to his conclusions.

 >Am I just supposed to _swallow_ this like all these
 >'stupid' ufo people do on a regular basis?

No - my point is we as a group and a community should be asking
questions of the mans claims from the start.

Before he gets his publicity, before something like this is
allowed to build up. "Cases" like ACC, Alien Autopsy etc, have
got masses of exposure and the like - and caused untold damage.
Am I really the only person who wants us as a community to
expose these people without damage being caused? My sole point
is WE should ask questions before others do........

 >I don't have a PhD, any degree of any kind, I'm no Stephen
 >Hawking, or rocket scientist (well after MCO even I could be one
 >without a degree so it would seem), but I do have a brain that
 >functions on logic, the senses, gut instinct, and the motives of
 >others.  I am perceptive and quite often see things others
 >wouldn't even give a second look at by reading between the
 >lines.

I have only an mcse and other industry certifications to my name
- but this sort of thing really is common sense. If someones
making claims of a shot down plane then they must have evidence
of that event - and if they are saying a death occured then
again they must have evidence -

 >I'm not saying Max is telling the truth or lying.  I just don't
 >like the righteous attitude I've seen in many threads proving to
 >me it's not I who does not have an open mind.  If I'm being
 >gullible, prove it to me, otherwise how can I be gullible of
 >something that no one can prove to me I'm being gullible of. Not
 >being too intelligent, that's the only way I could word it.

I don't like the gloating myself - I have very very strong anti
Drug Dealer feelings for personal reasons, but I'm not gloating
- as he'll be out soon anyway and he'll be back doing the same
old stuff - only this time he'll be a martyr, so I take no
pleasure in his banging up, not in a UFOlogical sense.. But he's
been banged up, he'll do his time and thats that on a personal
level for me - I hope the tape he is talking about is real and
of some use - and I mean that.

 >>Now lets put him behind us until he produces his evidence.

 >And I shall do the same to you sir.

Well, I hope I clarified my position. I don't think people are
stupid - I just think that we can help ourselves here and learn
to ask questions and the right questions. People should not be
afraid to challenge what they are presented with  - and make up
their own minds.

Personally I think theres been a concerted attempt to link
Triangle sightings with Aliens as a cover story in the last few
years - as well as build up a British "Roswell" - Andy Roberts
"Unknown Soldier"article in Fortean Times was pretty convincing
to me as a few "name" UFOlogists I spoke to had similar
experiences - "Sas men" making claims etc.

I wonder if Max has been played for an idiot here by a few
people who have an agenda of mischeif? Theres only anecdotal
evidence for this - and some emails posted to mailing lists and
news groups but it'd explain an awful lot.......

 >A toast to you also.

 >Sue

Thanks!
Now, if you've got this far thanks to you.
Cheers Jon

Collector of video Games such as Atari 5200,Vectrex, Colecovision,
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