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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2001 > Nov > Nov 29

Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001

From: DRudiak@aol.com
Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 14:34:46 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 07:30:18 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sat, 24 Nov 2001 13:00:18 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >>Date: Wed, 21 Nov 2001 17:27:32 -0500
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com
 >>From: George A. Filer <WeeklyFiles@filersfiles.com>
 >>Subject: Filer's Files #47 - 2001


 >>Eugene Cernan was the commander of Apollo 17 that flew to the
 >>moon. In a Los Angeles Times article in 1973 he said, about
 >>UFOs: "I've been asked (about UFOs) and I've said publicly I
 >>thought they (UFOs) were somebody else, some other
 >>civilization."

<snip>

 >Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've asked
 >for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual article,
 >nobody's been able to actually produce it. So many others of
 >these 'rich and famous UFO believer quotes' have turned out to
 >be spurious, it's sad that some people seem to think there's any
 >evidential value to them, without documentation.

I think everybody on the List read correctly that James Oberg
was attempting to debunk the quote by insinuating that it was
never made.

Cernan made his remarks at a press conference of Apollo 17
astronauts on January 5, 1973 in Houston, where Mr. Oberg lives,
I believe, since he works (worked?) for NASA.

I suspect all Mr. Oberg would have had to do to verify the quote
would have been to walk over to the NASA public relations office
and ask about it, or maybe ask a NASA archivist. Not only would
he have probably come up with some press clippings, but maybe
the original press conference transcript and videotape as well.

He could have also called up Eugene Cernan and simply asked him
about it. Or, as it turns out, he could have politely asked
about it on UFO Updates, where he got instantaneous results.
Instead he found it it so much easier to sneer at the "rich and
famous UFO believer quotes."

Although I completely agree that these quotes often turn out to
be spurious and do require documentation, the impression I think
we all get is that Mr. Oberg didn't try all that hard to
document this one.

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg


 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 ><snip>

 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.

He only had all the resources of NASA at his disposal to track
the quote down, if it came to that. But he didn't even have to
do that. See immediately below.

 ><snip>

 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
 >original citation,

Cernan's quote is in Timothy Good's "Above Top Secret." Good
accurately provides the citation as the Jan 6, 1973 Los Angeles
Times (see page 579). I bring this up here because notice below
how Oberg slams the quote Good uses from Werner von Braun in the
same book in the same chapter.

In other words, kiddies, all Oberg had to do to get the original
citation for the Cernan quote was go to the same page of
citations in Good's book that he used to check the von Braun
quote.

What does this say about the truthfulness of his statement that
he was unable to find the original citation?

The irony here, is in going after Good to deflect attention from
his screw-up on Cernan, Oberg is unwittingly providing the rope
to hang himself.

 >I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
 >propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >trying to establish the consensus here.

No, I don't see consensus building here, just a lot of
hand-waving to try to remove his foot from his mouth.

 >Second, I note that NOBODY has touched the X-15 Bob White
 >'testimony' fraud that my investigation on original cited
 >sources uncovered, and details of which I posted recently?

Why should anybody "touch it", since it wasn't the topic of
discussion? Wasn't the topic Eugene Cernan's "questionable"
quote?

Oberg is simply trying to change the subject after getting the
screws rightfully put to him for his slimy debunking tactics.

 >Do we
 >presume from this that 'silence implies consent' and that
 >everybody here is agreeable to posting the faked version of his
 >actual description of the small, tumbling, paper-shaped
 >doohingee he spotted outside his window? Is that the consensus,
 >and if not, what is anybody going to DO about it (right, other
 >people's mistakes are not our responsibility to correct -- you
 >can sense this attitude from some smarmy posts about
 >'how-dare-he?' question useful propaganda bites, whether
 >accurate or not.

Ironic how Oberg uses classic propaganda tactics to dodge
responsibility for his mistakes if not prevarications, then
accuses others of employing "propaganda bites."

 >Third, here's another piece of original research on another
 >'famous' pro-UFO quote from Wernher von Braun. Your reaction (or
 >lack of reaction) will be interesting.

More changing of the subject instead of simply apologizing.  He
got Cernan completely wrong, so he tries to rehabilitate himself
with his past "triumphs."

 >Famous 'Wernher von Braun' UFO quotation debunked.
 >James Oberg

 >There is a widespread quotation attributed to Wernher von Braun
 >in 1959, apparently first printed by Timothy Good, as follows:

Yes, the very same Timothy Good who also provided the correct
citation for the Cernan quote, which Oberg said he couldn't
obtain.

 >"We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than
 >we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown
to >us. More I cannot say at present. We are now engaged in
 >entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or
 >nine months time it may be possible to speak with some
precision >on the matter."

 >This comment comes from "News Europa" Jan. 1959

Yes, that's the citation Good provided in his chapter on NASA
(p. 579).  Of course, further down on the same page of citations
is the Los Angeles Times one for Cernan. And all these years,
poor Jim Oberg would have us believe he was unable to obtain
this citation from the propagandistic "UFO believers!"

I think I see some fingers wagging out there.

 >and refers to
 >mysterious events during the re-entry phase of the Juno 2 rocket
 >during a test flight.

 >One Internet example is:

 >http://www.connect.net/mattvest/sciufo.htm

 >The reference is to the Pioneer-IV moon probe, launched by the
 >Army-built Jupiter IRBM with upper stages, in December 1958.
 >
 >My colleague Tasillo Roemisch of Space Service Intl. in
 >Mittweida, Germany, went to the Deutsche Buecherei in Leipzig
 >and found out the following:

 >The magazine 'Neues Europa'(14 issues per year, all issues had
 >only 8 pages.) ceased publishing at the end of the sixties. Its
 >full title reads correctly:

 >Neues Europa. Das f=FChrende Weltblatt fuer alle Fragen der
 >kommenden Entwicklung. Verlag August Kraemer GmbH, Stuttgart
 >(New Europe. The leading World Magazine for all questions of the
 >coming development).

 >Roemisch checked all issues of the years 1959 and 1960 and found
 >out that they had been supporting a Karl Michalek who lived in
 >Santiago de Chile at that time and who claimed to be the
 >"President of the Coming World Republic Earth". He was sure that
 >the Venusian ET's were going to land in Berlin soon. Furthermore
 >the writers often wrote about the well known UFO personality
 >George Adamski and his associates.

 >Wernher von Braun was only mentioned one time, and that was in
 >issue no. 3 (Febr. 01, 1959) when they wrote that "Prof. Oberth,
 >the colleague of the German-American Wernher von Braun...
 >believes in the existence of extraterrestials living in the star
 >constallation Tau-Zeta, the Uranides."

 >The article footnoted by Good and so widely and trustingly
 >disseminated (issue no. 1, January 01, 1959, page 2) doesn't
 >mention von Braun at all. It read as follows. The headline was
 >"Sensationelle Zeichen aus dem Weltraum" (sensational signs from
 >outer space), and this is the sub-text:

 >"Interplanetarische Kr=E4fte, welche die irdischen Mond- Raketen
 >aus ihrer Bahn lenken" (interplanetary forces which direct
 >terrestrial moon rockets out of track), followed by "Russische
 >und amerikanische Fern- Raketen, die ihre Ziele nicht erreichen
 >- Demonstration der Venus- Kr=E4fte?"

 >(Russian and American rockets which don't reach their goals -
 >demonstration of the Venusian forces?)

 >The article itself: Saturday Dec 06, 1958. Fourth attempt of the
 >USA moonrocket failed. Juno 2 was hindered in an altitude of
 >100,000 km to fly higher and came back.

 >"Amerikanische Sachverst=E4ndige betonen, dass es im Weltall
 >Kr=E4fte gibt, welche die irdischen Raketen aus ihren
 >vorberechneten Bahnen ablenken, ihre Fluggeschwindigkeit
 >reduzieren und sie wieder in die Lufth=FClle der Erde
 >zur=FCckdirigieren."

 >(American specialists emphasize that there are forces in outer
 >space to mislead terrestial rockets out of their calculated
 >tracks to reduce their speed and to send them back to the
 >atmosphere of the Earth)

 >The author was Albert Laurent and he claimed the Russian and
 >Indian researchers have said about the same.

 >As one would expect from an Adamski-ite rag, the real science
 >and technology was hopelessly garbled. The American moon probes
 >had followed gravitational trajectories with no outside
 >interference suspected, even then; instead, problems with the
 >booster rockets put them on the wrong initial courses.

 >This investigation of the actual rather than the distorted
 >'quotation' inaccurately attributed to Wernher von Braun is not
 >expected to have any impact on the false versions now extant on
 >the WWW.

In the case of the Cernan quote, we have all seen just how hard
he tries to track down the original source material before
making insinuations about the truthfulness of it. But I guess
we'll just have to trust Jim Oberg on this one, that the quote
from von Braun really isn't there and Good bungled this one.

But Good _didn't_ bungle the Cernan citation, the one
trustworthy Jim Oberg claimed he couldn't obtain from the UFO
believers. Looks to me like the game of Good vs. Oberg is tied
at one all.


David Rudiak







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