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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2001 > Nov > Nov 29

Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:35 EST
Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:35:05 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I asked for documentation on an Internet quote, and that got
 >attacked as 'finger pointing' and 'screwing up'.

Can't imagine why. First you suggested the quote was bogus
because "nobody" (nobodies unspecified) would provide you with
an original citation. But you had the original L. A. Times
citation all along in Timothy Good's book ("Above Top Secret"),
you know, the one that had the chapter on NASA and quotes from
von Braun and Cernan. You ran down the Good's von Braun quote,
but not Cernan's. Why?

 >When the
 >documentation was provided from credible sources, I'm happy to
 >accept the newspaper account as authentic.

If you could check out Good's citation on von Braun, you could
have run down Good's citation on Cernan as well, and much more
easily (many libraries have a major paper like the L.A. Times on
microfilm, maybe even in Houston). Both citations were on the
same page. If that isn't "screwing up," then what is it?

 >The connection
 >between the newspaper account and Cernan's actual statements or
 >beliefs remains undefined, although the newsman in question -
 >Nick Chriss - was a veteran reporter known for accuracy.

 >As to the X-15 ("White's UFO") fraud, or the von Braun false
 >quote, now suddenly we hear that people never believed stuff on
 >the Internet anyway, so no big deal. Hmm, isn't this

Maybe you would care to address the inconsistency of your claim
that you couldn't find the Cernan citation, even though it was
right there with the von Braun citation in Good's book.

 >Yet when I suggested that without documentation _I_ wouldn't
 >believe something just because it was on the Internet, I wind
 >up whipped with Klassical ad hominems.

And you wouldn't know anything about using ad hominems, would

 >Isn't consistent logic such
 >a delight when you find it, or even when you don't? <grin>

Others of us may not share your "delight", since your ability to
find the von Braun quote citation in Good's book is logically
inconsistent with your seeming inability to find the Cernan
citation in the same book, in fact, even on the same page.

 >I'll continue to dig into the accuracy of stuff widely published
 >on the Internet, out of this curious obsession with getting real
 >facts right and false facts exposed and documented. I guess that
 >obsession is sort of crazy to many people! <again, grin>

You were so "obsessed" with documenting the Cernan quote and
getting your "facts right" that you completely ignored or
overlooked Good's citation. Somehow, however, you found the von
Braun quote in the same chapter on NASA and UFOs, and used
Good's citation to run it down. They you proudly announced how
you had debunked the von Braun quote.

As to the Cernan quote, you wrote on Updates Nov. 21:

  "Cernan's quotation keeps being repeated, but whenever I've
  asked for the original citation, or a photocopy of the actual
  article, nobody's been able to actually produce it."

The insinuation here was that the quote was false, because
"nobody's been able to actually produce" "the original citation
or a photocopy of the actual article."

I don't know about you, but I usually do my own legwork instead
of relying on the knowledge of Internet "nobodies." A good place
for you to have started was turning to the index of "Above Top
Secret.," you know, the book with those erroneous NASA/astronaut
quotes you like to debunk, such as von Braun and Bob White. In
about 3 seconds you would have had the page number of Cernan's

In 3 more seconds, you could have thumbed to the page with
Cernan's quote and gotten the number of the citation footnote.
Then turning to the reference section in the rear of the book,
in a few more seconds you would have had the actual citation: p.
579, "Chris Nicholas: 'Cernan Says Other Earths Exist,' Los
Angeles Times, 6 January 1973."

Boy, that was hard!

Perhaps you can explain to us why you couldn't bother yourself
in your great obsession to track down the facts. Maybe it was
because there is so much for you to debunk and so little time!

Incidentally, given your past record of spin-doctoring (your
current response to your screw-up, yes SCREW-UP, on the Cernan
quote being a very good example), I don't consider YOU to be a
highly credible source.

I don't know if von Braun actually made the quote attributed to
him by Good. I guess we'll just have to take your word for now
that it isn't in Good's citation, Neues Europa, 1 January 1959.
But I do know for a fact that von Braun was in Germany at that
time attending the funeral of his mother, who died Dec. 28, 1958
in Munich. (This can be verified with a quick thumb through the
New York Times index, available at most major libraries, even in
Houston I'm sure.)

The point is von Braun was in the right place at the right time
to have been directly quoted by the German press. I wouldn't be
too quick to dismiss the possibility that the quote in question
is floating out there, perhaps in one of the Munich newspapers
instead of Neues Europa. Somebody, however, would have to spend
the time doing a diligent search of German newspapers and
magazines to see what the German press quoted von Braun as
saying about anything. (I'm sure it would have been big news to
have von Braun back in Germany. The papparazzi probably would
have been all over him).

For all we know, maybe the German equivalent of the L.A. Times
has him saying "Other Earths Exist" or "I thought they were
somebody else, some other civilization." Famous people
affiliated with NASA have been known to say such things, hard as
it may be for James Oberg to accept in his zealous quest for the

Even if the German quote turns out to be completely bogus, it
should come as no surprise to many on the Updates list that some
people associated with von Braun have claimed he spoke to them
about the reality of UFOs. Here are but two examples from a
quick Net search:

1. Michael Lindemann and CNI News, reporting on Clark McClelland
comments on NASA covering up UFOs and von Braun telling him of
the Roswell crash


2. UFO/Disney/von Braun connection with additional comments by
Bruce Maccabee and Stanton Friedman, including this by Stan: "I
should add that I have recently been told that the late Dr. Hans
Nieper, a rather remarkable German Physician, has told people
that Von Braun told him that indeed aliens and flying saucers
were real."


David Rudiak

UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
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