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Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 18:58:52 EST
Fwd Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 22:42:02 -0500
Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Rudiak

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >Date: Fri, 30 Nov 2001 08:49:06 -0600

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 14:24:35 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@home.com

 >>Maybe you would care to address the inconsistency of your claim
 >>that you couldn't find the Cernan citation, even though it was
 >>right there with the von Braun citation in Good's book.

 >Maybe we should concentrate on the quality of the evidence
 >rather than finding ways to avoid looking at it.

What sort of non-answer is that?

You were the one who came on UpDates like gangbusters claiming
no one would provide you with a citation on the Cernan quote,
insinuating that the quote was fabricated. All you had to do was
go to Good's book to get the citation.

The fact that you are familiar with Good and his various NASA
quotations is clearly evidenced by another UpDates post only
last Nov. 25, where you proudly detailed you're debunking of an
alleged quote he had from Werner von Braun. An excerpt from that

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 16:32:23 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 18:29:12 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

 >Famous 'Wernher von Braun' UFO quotation debunked.
 >James Oberg

 >There is a widespread quotation attributed to Wernher von Braun
 >in 1959, apparently first printed by Timothy Good, as follows:

 >"We find ourselves faced by powers which are far stronger than
 >we had hitherto assumed, and whose base is at present unknown to
 >us. More I cannot say at present. We are now engaged in
 >entering into closer contact with those powers, and in six or
 >nine months time it may be possible to speak with some precision
 >on the matter."

 >This comment comes from "News Europa" Jan. 1959 and refers to
 >mysterious events during the re-entry phase of the Juno 2 rocket
 >during a test flight.

In the same chapter that has the von Braun quote has Cernan's
quote, the one you questioned as one you couldn't find any
original citation on. Yet you use Good's Neues Europa citation
for the von Braun quote to try to track it down, but failed to
use his Cernan citation.

Again, I ask why? Again, I'm sure you will dodge the question.

Despite your sanctimonius talk about concentrating "on the
quality of the evidence rather than finding ways to avoid
looking at it," this seems to be exactly what you are doing.

First, it is abundantly obvious that you didn't try all that
hard to find the citation on Cernan's quote. Whatever your
opinion of Good's book, it is heavily referenced, and has a full
chapter on NASA with all those astronaut quotes you obviously
love to debunk. If somebody had asked me about the Cernan quote
and a citation for it, Good's book would have been the first one
I would have grabbed to see if both were in there.

Second, when the Cernan quote was validated here on UpDates and
the full citation given, what was your response? From the same
Nov. 25 post:

 >>Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2001 12:59:28 -0800 (PST)
 >>From: Rebecca <xiannekei@yahoo.com>
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>


 >>Well, now you have some documentation. Perhaps you should do
 >>your own digging before dismissing things. I'm surprised at you.
 >>While I don't know what your research capabilities are, I can
 >>imagine that you would have access to many resources to find the
 >>data you need.


 >Hmm, let's see who needs a finger wagged at, and who's been
 >lazy. Regarding Cernan's quote, thanks for the date of the
 >original citation, I presume 28 years is barely enough time to
 >verify that a newspaper clipping reflected the astronaut's true
 >opinion, especially when that attributed opinion was 'useful' as
 >propaganda. Have we established that EVERY ONE of us on this
 >discussion is in agreement that the newspaper article was an
 >accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant? Just
 >trying to establish the consensus here.

When we cut through the Obergian double-talk, what you seem to
be saying is essentially this. Even though the LA Times article
and the quote in it had been verified as real, you refused to
accept that it "reflected the astronaut's true opinion" or "was
an accurate reflection of what Cernan really said or meant." To
you it was nothing more than "useful propaganda" for the "UFO

A few days later, Oberg repeated this refrain. He accepted the
article as authentic, but not the quotes, even though he
admitted the LA Times reporter was "known for accuracy."

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 09:02:33 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:19:04 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>From: Robert Gates <RGates8254@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 01:16:49 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net

 >I asked for documentation on an Internet quote, and that got
 >attacked as 'finger pointing' and 'screwing up'. When the
 >documentation was provided from credible sources, I'm happy to
 >accept the newspaper account as authentic. The connection
 >between the newspaper account and Cernan's actual statements or
 >beliefs remains undefined, although the newsman in question -
 >Nick Chriss - was a veteran reporter known for accuracy.

Now who's the one actually "avoiding looking at the evidence"
here? I'm sure if the shoe were on the other foot and Cernan had
instead said that anyone who thinks UFOs are real is a complete
loony, there would be no such huffing and puffing from Oberg
about the accuracy of the quote.

The irony is that Cernan didn't say he knew for a fact that
UFO's were real, merely that it was his opinion that they were,
and represented some other civilization, amongst many he thought
must exist in the universe on a statistical basis alone.

But even these rather benign comments, since they came from an astronaut,
seemingly must be eradicated by the NASA Taliban thought police (AKA James

In yet another post to UpDates, again dodging a response as to
why he couldn't find the citation, Oberg instead said he was
going to try to find the NASA videotape of the press conference:

 >From: James Oberg <joberg@houston.rr.com>
 >Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 12:04:03 -0600
 >Fwd Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2001 16:30:52 -0500
 >Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001 - Oberg

 >>From: David Rudiak <DRudiak@aol.com>
 >>Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2001 15:53:24 EST
 >>Subject: Re: Filer's Files #47 - 2001
 >>To: UFO UpDates - Toronto <ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net>

 >>It was no problem finding the article. Cernan's
 >>remarks were made during a press conference of Apollo 17
 >>astronauts in Houston (where Oberg lives) on Jan. 5, 1973.

 >What I can add is to get a tape of that press conference from
 >NASA-JSC and see if it was a question asked during the
 >conference, although it might have been asked face-to-face
 >either before or after the formal event.

Well that's fine. I hope he does come up with the videotape,
though I doubt if it will add anything new. If I may do a little
mindreading, however, it strikes me that Oberg is hoping against
hope that he will find a significant discrepancy between the
videotaped remarks and how Cernan was quoted. Or, failing that,
he is hoping that the remarks were not made during the public
news conference, but off-the-record. Then he can do a song and
dance about how the remarks lack independent corroboration, or
how the reporter misunderstood or misquoted Cernan.

I doubt he will discover the latter, because the LA Times
article twice states that Cernan's remarks came during the press

"Cernan told a news conference: 'I'm one of those guys who has
never seen a UFO (unidentified flying object). But I've been
asked, and I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else,
some other civilization. ....Cernan's statements came at the
last news conference of the Apollo 17 crew..."

The article also notes that Cernan's remarks came after those of
Harrison Schmitt: "Earlier, Schmitt said he though some of the
strange moon soil that he and Cernan picked up near the Crater
Shorty on the moon may be only 10 million years old."

If the remarks had been made privately, the article more likely
would have read "Cernan told this reporter" or "Cernan told the
Times" or "Cernan said after the press conference" or something
like that.

I'm sure, with his stated concern about "quality of evidence"
and not "finding ways to avoid looking at it," if he does find
the tape, that James Oberg will let the world know that the tape
corroborates the Time's quotes, if that's the case, just as
surely as he would write some smug article about how he had
disproven the quote, if that was also the case.

David Rudiak

UFO UpDates - Toronto - ufoupdates@virtuallystrange.net
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