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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 2

Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction

From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul>
Date: Mon, 2 May 2005 04:45:32 EDT
Fwd Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 11:35:29 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction

>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2005 11:13:13 -0500
>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>From: Nigel Watson <valis23a.nul>
>>To: ufoupdates.nul
>>Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2005 07:01:07 EDT
>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>>From: Gildas Bourdais <gbourdais.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 27 Apr 2005 11:45:45 +0200
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 25 Apr 2005 08:34:53 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>>>Patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>>>To appreciate how little prepared ufologists were for the
>>>>modern abduction phenomenon, one has only to read Walt Webb's
>>>>report to NICAP of his initial investigation of the Hill CE3
>>>>(not suspected to be an abduction then). He overlooks
>>>>significant parts of the testimony and rationalizes away
>>>>portions that would later be seen as seminal. The Hill episode
>>>>was something so new and novel that ufologists failed to
>>>>recognize it for what it signified till years later.

>>>>It is important to turn to primary sources whenever possible.
>>>>There, while doing historical research for my encyclopedia in
>>>>the 1990s, I found the occasional intriguing but overlooked and
>>>>not-understood reference to things that sound much like missing

>>I don't think the Hill case was that novel or out of the
>>ordinary in 1961. It has been argued that abductions were only
>>noted in obscure UFO magazines unavailable to the Hills, yet if
>>we look at the investigation of their case, they had long
>>discussions with UFO experts within weeks of their encounter
>>experience. From them they would have picked up plenty of
>>information about current UFO research and theories.

>No, they wouldn't have. That material just wasn't available. You
>simply don't know what you're talking about. Until you do, a
>wise course of action, it seems to me, would be to choose to
>engage only in those disucssions in which you have something to

>In its time the Hill case was an extraordinary revelation, as
>all of those who were there in the mid-1960s can testify, when
>reports of the abduction aspect emerged. There was a general
>feeling of shock and excitement. Other ufologists who lived and
>were active at the time will recall exactly what I mean. As I
>pointed out earlier, the sophisticated and knowledgeable
>ufologist (and astronomer) Walt Webb, who initially investigated
>the case, was so unprepared for it that he failed to recognize
>what he had when he conducted his inquiries.


I hope you patient and gentle Listfolk appreciate Jerry's rude
and impatient remarks as much as I do.

When Walter Webb investigated the case, the Hill's did not
mention missing time or an abduction. If you read Fuller's book
it is clear that the Hill's spoke to several ufologists about
their experience. Over the weeks their recollection of the
incident became more elaborate.

Although the Hill case is the most important in ufology it is
significant that the only major account of it is by a popular
journalist and author. Where are the detailed investigations and
reports by the likes of Keyhoe, Hynek or Clark?

>>It should also be noted that throughout the 1950s the contactee
>>literature and science fiction on TV and in films often
>>contained alien encounters and abductions.

>This is no argument at all. If one looks hard enough, one can
>find, here and there, an illustration of a disclike object in a
>pre-Arnold SF magazine. That does nothing to help us to explain
>daylight-disc sightings (Arnold, by the way, was anything but a
>science-fiction fan) - the presence of which also shocked the
>world, apparently not so awash SF fans and disc images as
>pelicanist doctrine requires us to believe.


What has Arnold and pre-SF magazines got to do with the Hill
case? Their encounter was in 1961, there had already been a
decade of contactee literature, UFO reports in the newspapers
and many SF films about alien invasions and abduction.

>And by the way, taking abductions off the table, where is the
>evidence that persons who are not emotionally disturbed are
>subject to vivid science-fiction fantasies which they are
>deluded into believing really happened? If this is a recognized
>category of nonpathological mental malfunction and exists
>outside the abduction arena, it has escaped me. I've never heard
>of it, and I suspect nobody else has, either.

>To refine the point, logic tells us that if mentally well
>persons can undergo vivid, lifelike experiences which are
>actually just reruns of SF stories, that ought to be easily
>documentable. The most susceptible would be hard-core SF fans,
>those who spend a portion of every day of their waking lives
>reading, writing, viewing, or thinking about SF (not a
>description of the Hills, of course). Is there any evidence in
>the clinical literature that SF enthusiasts who are not mentally
>ill fall victim to extraordinary SF-based hallucinations which
>they confuse with event-level experience? Didn't think so.

Philip K. Dick for one.

Clark goes on to berate me for thinking like a pelicanist (to
use his own words 'what in hell' does that mean?).

Clark rudely asks whether pelicanists can read, so telling us
that we can only talk about abductions if we read Stuart
Appelle's evaluation of the subject is obviously wasted on those
of us who are branded by this term.

Being rude and pompous is no replacement for reasoned argument.

On a more important and final point where is the objective,
empirical evidence for the Hill abduction?

Nigel Watson

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