UFO UpDates
A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
'Its All Here In Black & White'
Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2005 > May > May 9

Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction

From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
Date: Sun, 8 May 2005 09:55:54 -0500
Fwd Date: Mon, 09 May 2005 20:27:30 -0400
Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction

>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sat, 07 May 2005 18:44:40 +0100
>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 6 May 2005 10:28:42 -0500
>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Wed, 04 May 2005 19:23:42 +0100
>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>>>From: Jerome Clark <jkclark.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Tue, 3 May 2005 13:05:12 -0500
>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

>>>>>From: Peter Rogerson <progerson.nul>
>>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>>Date: Mon, 02 May 2005 19:17:55 +0100
>>>>>Subject: Re: UFO Couple Use Story To Spark Alien Abduction Fear

Peter and patient and gentle Listfolk:

>>History, of course, has proved that they were right. The
>>missing-time phenomenon has been repeatedly demonstrated, over
>>time and space, as one of the most common elements of the
>>abduction experience. If it hadn't been the Hill case that
>>opened ufologists' eyes to this curious aspect, it would have
>>been another just down the road, and probably not very far down
>>that road.

>Yes. Unlike Walter Webb who was a mainstream scientific
>ufologist, Hohmann and Jackson, who had at least one foot in the
>realm of contacteeism and folk ufology, were not _entirely
>unpredisposed_ to believe in alien abduction; the general idea
>of alien abduction, and aliens being responsible for missing
>people etc was already around in folk ufology.

Alien abduction is not a contactee concept, of course - pretty
much the opposite, actually. The idea of abduction was not there
in "folk" or serious mainstream ufology in the early 1960s (as
anyone who was there can attest, Peter's alternative-reality
claims notwithstanding). Nobody had a clue to the occurrence of
any such thing, and that's why Walter Webb didn't grasp what
Barney Hill was trying to tell him. Your historical sense in
these matters is pretty much nonexistent, Peter. Those
interested in how ufologists conceived of CE3s - then called
"occupant reports" - in the years before the Hill encounter are
referred to pp. 218-20 of The UFO Encyclopedia, 2nd ed.

>I don't think that Hohmann and Jackson were just passive
>recorders however; it's there [sic] influence which later sets Betty
>on the road to becoming a semi contactee for example. Right at
>the beginning they come up with these strange ideas about
>nitrates, and I think their role is crucial in persuading Betty
>that her nightmares are real, and there was this period of real
>as opposed to subjective missing time.

As I have said more than once, Barney's testimony to Webb is
entirely consistent with amnesia and temporal anomaly and actually does
not make sense without it - as Webb himself, whose expertise on
what the Hills said and thought I, like any sensible observer, would
take over yours any day, recognized as soon as the missing time aspect
was uncovered.

>The impossible level of detail is something which occurs in a
>number of cases of apparitions/hallucinations and suggests the
>essentially subjective nature of the experience.

And of course precisely the opposite could as easily be argued.
It's the absence of detail that defines contactee literature and
makes it, unlike the testimony of the Hills and other abductees,
so fatally uncompelling. Since you have already made up your
mind that all extraordinary UFO phenomena, including abduction
reports, are "essentially subjective," _anything_ - plus its
opposite - proves that to you. Not, however, to the rest of us,
who feel no need to assert certainty when nothing in the
available evidence supports such presumption in either direction
Perhaps when Bill Chalker and his team of genetic scientists
complete their DNA analysis of abduction-related hair samples,
we will be able to speak from a position of relatively surer
knowledge. The preliminary indications certainly look intriguing
and promising.

Till then, I am happy to be a practicing agnostic about the ultimate
epistemological status of the abduction phenomenon, including the
Hills's experience of it.

By the way, I am amused to note that you conflate "apparitions"
and "hallucinations" as if the two terms were synonyms. Again,
an enormously complex issue is turned cartoon in service to your
beloved disbelief tradition.

>My impression
>of Barney's experiences in the field is that remind me of the
>flashbacks associated with post traumatic stress, something
>which would definitely not have occurred to investigators in the
>early 1960s. The imagery is essentially human, the kamikaze
>pilot with leather jacket and scarf, the _evil Nazi officer_,
>the threatening cop etc. Maybe this stress was helping to cause
>his ulcer. As with many of these cases the Hill case, I suspect,
>can only be understood in the context of the totality of their
>lives, and the times in which they lived.

That last is about as blatantly unfalsifiable a hypothesis as I
have ever seen. It also can be applied to anybody and to _any_
personal experience of _any_ kind. _Everything_ we experience
and feel "can only be understood in the context of the totality
of [our] lives, and the times in which [we live]." That tells us
precisely nothing about the reality or unreality of any given
perception - unless, that is, one is grasping desperately for an
unfalsifiable claim to hurl at an unwelcome experiential

Beyond that:

All rank speculation, of course, of the sort that an armchair and a
vast ocean's separation seem, unfortunately, only to encourage.
Unless, of course, you're trying to tell us that you're practicing
remote viewing.

>Missing time in general probably has several causes, ranging all
>the way from simple inattention, through highway hypnosis, micro
>sleep/micro rem, the complete kinds of complete disorientation
>and hallucination reported by night travellers ( the Irish stray
>sod for example), all the way up to dissociative episodes, fugue
>states, epileptic and narcopletic attacks and other neurological
>events, and surely in some cases the pills and the booze, to say
>nothing of those made up to cover up extra marital affairs (as
>seems to have been the case in more than one British abduction).

All rank speculation, of course, devoid of any empirical
evidence. I invite all those who have actually _investigated_
abduction cases - or experienced the phenomenon personally - to
judge how persuasive the random guesses above strike you. You
may also wish, as I've urged once or twice before, to read
psychologist Stuart Appelle's comprehensive review of
psychological explanations and their empirical inadequacies,
published in JUFOS a few years ago and available from CUFOS
("The Abduction Experience: A Critical Evaluation of Theory and
Evidence," Vol. 6, 1995/1996: 29-79). The difference between
Appelle's approach and Rogerson's is the difference between
scientific inquiry and literary criticism.

The rest of us actually are trying to understand and eventually,
we hope, to provide a nonspeculative explanation for the
dynamics of a phenomenon as yet unexplained. Missing time -
 which was experienced here and there, though not noticed or
remarked upon by investigators and ufologists, well before the
Hills's encounter with it - remains a consistent feature of a
mystery which the likes of Peter Rogerson remain determined to
reinvent via wing-flapping; thus, they are enabled, in their own
wishful thoughts anyway, to "explain" what they have just made
up. Is it any wonder that pelicanism doesn't fly?

Jerry Clark

[ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ]
This Month's Index |

UFO UpDates Main Index

UFO UpDates - Toronto - Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp

Archive programming by Glenn Campbell at Glenn-Campbell.com