From: Matt Graeber <Matthewgraeber.nul com> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 10:07:37 EDT Fwd Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2005 12:33:55 -0400 Subject: Carbondale UFO Crash Chronicles Entry No. 2 The Carbondale UFO Crash Chronicles Entry No. 2 BUFO's OFFICIAL PETITION TO THE PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION regarding their request for the iniation of a (GAO) Government Accounting Office inquiry into the cover up of The Carbondale UFO incident of November 9- 11,1974. (A gentle critique). Welcome back to the Carbondale Ufo Crash Chronicles - I'm really glad you've returned and may be sharing this information with your fellow saucerheads or saucerheadettes... as the case may be. This time we are going to explore the lack of merit to the BUFO PETITION for a G. A. O. inquiry into the Carbondale UFO crash cover up - which of course, the BUFOrian's believe to be a factual and potentially historic event... or, as their ace investigator Ron Hannivig refers to the matter, "The big one!" Since some of my reader's may not be aware of the fact that I was one of the three pimary UFO field investigators at the Carbondale crash site on the 11th of November,1974. It might be a good idea for those readers to peruse my essay/report on the Carbondale UFO/Lantern Hoax at the http://magonia. mysite. wanado-members. co. uk/ms55. htm the story is posted in full-length. It's not a quick read so, have some milk and cookies at the ready. The essay/report is far too lengthy and detailed to place in this journal but, it suffices to say that quite a few serious UFO researchers who have read it feel that it is a revealing, instructive and informative article. I won't bother to quote them here as I wouldn't want to be accused of tooting my own horn... But, then again,what the hell, "toot-toot!!" However, that's not really what I wanted to discuss with you this time. The thrust of this writing is directed at the frivilous and extraordinarily nonsensical BUFO PETITION that Mary Sutherland recently came up with. Of course, I may be giving Mrs. Sutherland far too much credit here, as the document does seem to have a rather pronounced Hannivigian flavoring to it. (one may recall Ronald Hannivig is one of BUFO's pair of Carbondalean saucer sleuths). Anyway, while reading the BUFO petition, I quickly realized that it was not only seriously flawed but, contained several wonderful examples of unbridled UFOOLogy that I wanted to share with you. (I hope you'll recall that UFOOLogy is a kind of investigative dysfunctioning which permits quantum leaps of illogiocal assumptions to taint UFO reasearching and investigative thought processes). So, with UFOOLogy redefined, I think we may safely continue... Hmm, if you go to: http://www. burlingtonnews. net/carbondalerussian you can see the petition. You'll quickly notice that it contains a lot of 'Whereas' lingo and looks kinda official too. However, I'm certain that when the Congressional Delegates read the petition they are not only going to wonder who in the hell wrote this drivel but, "why?" The answer to that question may not be very difficult to grasp, once those legal beagles sink their teeth into it. Let's start at the beginning... PETITION TO PENNSYLVANIA CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION FOR INVESTIGATION OF NOVEMBER 9, 1974 Carbondale Incident. 1. "Whereas, on November 9, 1974 something crash landed into the silt pond of Carbondale, Pennsylvania. " Actually, no one observed anything crash landing in the pond at the time of the initial incident. It was thought that a meteor which the original reportees (three local teens) had observed was assumed to have been the same object they discovered moments later glowing in the pond - that object was actually a six volt battery powered R. R. lantern. Twenty-five years later one of the boy's confessed that he made up the part of the story about seeing an object in the sky plummet into the pond. However, there may have been some "I saw it too!" bandwaggoning eyewitnesses who came forward after the downed UFO rumors had spread throughout the community? 2. "Whereas, for the past 27 years, citizens of Carbondale and surrounding communities have attempted to find out what it was. "It's actually been 31 years since the incident occured but then again, who's counting except BUFO's Hannivig, Sutherland and Scassellati? During that time not one person from Carbondale or its surrounding communities has ever contacted me regarding the on site field investigation and witness interviews that Mr. Douglas K. Dains and I performed on the incident. I had several phone calls on November 12,1974 and shared reports with several UFO researchers at that time, but that was the extent of it. This obvious lack of interest and objectivity in the case is a rather curious state of affairs because I know that BUFO's Mr. Hannivig was informed in 1995 that I was one of the primary investigators at the scene; and he claimed that "my name didn't ring a bell for him. "I thought this to be highly unusual because many news paper stories of the incident mentioned the names and organizations of all three UFO field investigators at the alleged crash scene. Yet, Ron Hannivig never bothered to contact me, it was only after I contacted BUFO on the internet (in April of 2004), that Mary Sutherland and a fellow named Rick Fisher, (Fisher had gone to Carbondale to interview Frank Scassellati). Mr. Fisher of Paranormal,Pa. inquired as to when I might be sending a "duplicate copy" of the original report on my findings regarding the incident to Carbondale's Historical Society - (as the original 31 page report to the Carbondale Police Department had mysteriously vanished). I tried to assist Mrs. Sutherland and her investigators by providing them with names, addresses and investigative leads that they might follow up on regading "unanswered questions" that they found to be baffling, suspicious and mysterious about the case. I also provided Mrs. Sutherland with a draft of my essay on the Carbondale Hoax which she promised to post at her website for her readership to peruse. (In lieu of correcting several posted distortions about my involvememt at the pond years earlier). That didn't happen, and I finally told her to forget about it as I was planning to post the story myself. But her inverstigator, Frank Scassellati did post a "rebuttal" to some of the thoughts I shared with Mrs. Sutherland. He seemed to be particularly upset with my comment that the story of the incident had over the years obviously become a piece of Lackawanna County folklore. Mary Sutherland finally did post a wee bit of my essay in March of 2005. (i. e.,11+ months after she promised to do so) but, at "MJ Graeber", not BUFO sites or links. That posting suddenly and mysteriously appeared along with BUFO's Petition after I informed Mr. Scassellati that I planned to post this journal exposing all the BUFOrian nonsence regarding the Carbondale matter. Mary's responce also appeared when Mr. Harney of Magonia sent my Carbondale essay/report to UFO UpDates and it appeared on "Virtually Strange". 3... "Whereas, military personnel from the Army and Air Force were identfied at the scene by eyewitnesses, including news reporters and fire fighters, as involved in the search, and military vehicles were observed at or near the impact site. " There were not any military personnel at Carbodale during the entire 44 hour incident. There were Civil Air Patrol members (some wearing fatigue uniforms - they came from Carbondale and Scranton, Pa. ) Some of the C. A. P. members were driven to the scene in a military truck with a canvas tarps, its doors were clearly marked with the "Civil Air Patrol"logo yet, some near sighted or simply mistaken folks thought it read U. S. Army,U. S. Air Force and NASA too. I briefly spoke to a one Air Force officer who was with the C. A. P. at the site on Nov. 11,1974 - perhaps this lone individual is the military personnel that BUFO is talking about (?) Perhaps the C. A. P. lad who wore a pistol on his hip is the armed Army troops or military police personnel that some people thought they saw and encountered at the scene (?) Perhaps the sighting of the C. A. P. truck sparked the various covert military truck stories. (?) Perhaps the fact that a piece of damaged machinery fron the defunct DeAngelis company's coal breaker at the pond had been taken away on a lowboy trailer at approximately 6 A. M. on Nov. 10th. further fueled the rumors of a saucer retreival(?) Perhaps BUFO should have mentioned all this information in their flimsy, non-objective and woefully slanted petition. I once worked for a construction firm, and it was standard operating procedure to move equipment on Sundays to avoid traffic, and have it available on Monday morning work crews or necessary repairs. BUFO's investigators probably are well aware of these facts yet, they seem to prefer to say that the military were there, and that news reporters and fire personnel had reported seeing them. But, Hannivig and Scassellati have failed to post copies of the five fire company's daily log entries confirming their claims, and they have not posted the published news articles that mention any groups other than the C. A. P., the Carbondale police and volunteer fire companies being present at the so-called crash site. Doing so is very basic investigative procedure. They also have not identified which military units were present, and posted copies of such units daily "Morning Reports" which would certainly verify their presence at the scene. Strangely, BUFO's defective detectives haven't even posted the information contained in the Carbondale police reports concerning the incident and that information would be very easy to obtain. BUFO also hasn't posted the UFORIC report which is available as a matter of public record at the Carbondale Historical Society, and that lengthy and detailed document has been available for many months. 4. "Whereas, some witnesses report seeing a glowing object moving in the waters of the silt pond located in Carbondale, Pennsylvanua prior to the arrival of military. " Egads, BUFO almost got this one right! Police and several witnesses actually did see the disc of light on the surface of the water "appear to move. "It is highly probable that the " illusion of movement "occured as the submerged lantern was nudged by police as they were attempting to scoop it up in a fish net which was fitted on the end of a 10ft pole. What was observed by the witnesses and the police may have been a shift of the railroad lantern's light beam as the lamp resettled in the silt after it fell out of the fish net. (there are three illustrations of this light beam shifting in UFORIC's 31 page report on the incident at the Carbondale Historical Society), and BUFO is well aware of that document because I informed Mr. Fisher when I would be sending it along. 5. "Whereas, some witnesses state that a large covered object was transported out of the area on a military flat bed tractor- trailer truck:" Well, the only witnesses BUFO has mentioned in their postings regarding this claim is a "child-at-the-time" gal named Dawn Race, her mother and her sister Kim whose statements are completely contradicted (and probably discredited) by two other eyewitnesses who say they saw a strange object being taken from the pond during the early morning hours of Nov. 10th 1974 too. The problem is that neither of the alleged total of five eyewitnesses mention seeing each other at the pond during the covert activities. (i. e., the three never saw the other two, and vice versa. ) So, it seems that someone may be fibbing, mistaken or visually impaired. Moreover, the witnesses descriptions of the object do not match, and two of them are certain that the men at the pond were "not in uniform. "The same two also say that it was so dark that they couldn't make out the facial features of the men who asked them to leave the area - but, they think one of them may have been the Acting Police Chief. Yet, BUFO's investigators would ask us to believe that Ms. Race age 4 at the, her sister Kim age 7, and Mother were able to see precisely what was going on from a much greater distance than the original reportees who told their version of events to the Isis Center's Ms Mary Schmitt, only days after the incident had been deemed a hoax. Moreover, Dawn Race recently informed me that she was actually with her Grandfater and sister at the time of her observations. Additionally, the two 1974 (Isis Ceneter) witnesses came forward at the behest of the young Bobby Gillette's Mother, who was upset that her boy was suspected of perpetrating a costly and embarrassing prank. Apparently,Vera Gillette didn't like the idea that some neighbors were calling her boy a liar! Bobby Gillette was 14 years old at the time. BUFO's star eyewitness (Ms Dawn Race) was allegedly in the company of her Mother and sister Kim, at 3 a. m. on the very dark and frigid morning of Nov. 10th,1974. They were standing in the St. Rose of Lima Cemetery observing the military place a UFO on a flat bed truck according to BUFO - While the other couple (19 year old Bill Brady and Ms. Peggy Mendez-16, who were described as teenage friends), had managed to skirt the police cordon and sneak into the area where they observed a small humming blue object with seven or eight men around it. (Young Brady and Ms Mendez said they got to within thirty feet of the object). Interestingly, the couple were also friends of Bobby Gillettes' - while BUFO's newest eyewitness is a friendof another boy (i. e., John Lloyd) who was at the pond with his brother a Gillette. In fact, after BUFO's investigators visited the pond with Ms. Race on April, 27th 2004 she, her sister Kim and Rick Fisher (of Paranormal, Pa. ) were reported to have visited John Lloyd at his home by Frank Scassellati but, Fisher categorically denies that ever happening. Ya know, in the old days of UFO investigation we tried to interview the witnesses separately, on a one to one basis somehow, it seemed to be the proper thing to do. (I persoanlly believe that Mr. Fisher's version of the story is factual). Of course, there were also rumors that an object was secretly removed from the pond and placed on a flat bed railcar, in an armored truck, lifted by two military helicopters- and that even a locally owned delivery truck was somehow involved in the recovery activities at the silt pond. So, I guess you can take your pick of which "unverifiable rumor" you prefer on this matter. BUFO's investigators seem to embrace the military flat bed tractor-trailer story which their child-at-the-time witness has told them about. (Eventhough she says the recovery took place at a time they do not agree with so, I guess somebody at BUFO seems to be a little confused about the matter). Moreover, Ms Race told me that she never saw anyhting being loaded upon the truck... she just observed it leaving the area. Curiously, the UFO that was said to have been spirited away by the military at Kecksburg, Pa. nine years earlier, was also reported to have been removed from the area on a flat bed military truck and covered with a tarps just as BUFO's eyewitness reports. But, Mr. Hannivig, Mr. Scassellati and Mrs. Sutherland only passingly mention this striking similarity in their many postings. Nor do they sound a note of caution about child-at-the-time witness testimony, which quite often turns out to be more of what the child heard adults saying about a situation than a matter of observed fact. Then of course, there is the sad, but valueable lesson learned in the acceptance and endorsement of child-at-the-time star Roswell eyewitness Gerald Anderson. He completely bamboozeled Stanton Friedman, Walter Andrus of MUFON, the folks at CUFOS and countless others in the UFO field until Thomas J. Carey unmaskd him as a chronic and habitual yarn-spinner. I hope the folks at BUFO contact Mr. Carey about this highly instructive story. (tcarey1947.nul com). Additionally, a month before the Carbondale saucer crash incident occurred, a retired professor of mass communications from the University of South Florida, (Robert Spencer Carr), was appearing on many nationally syndicated TV and radio talk shows discussing the alleged crash of three flying saucers in New Mexico back in the late 40's. The Professor was a hoaxer who also appeared at quite a few universities with his yarns. - Carr's son revealed upon his father's passing that his Dad told these bogus stories because he simply enjoyed the attention that the stories afforded him. (in short, he was a bit of a lonely and eccentric old man. ) I later learned from another Ufologist that the professor wasn't actually a professor at all; he had retired after working for the Disney Corp. But, he was the first to use the term "Building 18" (One might recall from the vast saucer litereature, that building or, hamger 18 is were quite a number of downed UFOs and alien bodies are said to be warehoused). Brad Sparks was the first to inform me of Carr's link to hangar 18. Mr. Carr was a silver-haired gent who looked something like a Kentucky Colonel... many people believed his stories which included visits to his Florida home by little aliens on numerous occassions. One wonders how much Carr's yarns may have helped to trigger all the "spontaneous rumors" that sprang up in the coal- cracking community of Carbondale back in '74 (?) 6. "Whereas, some witnesses report being stopped by armed U. S. military officials who prevented them from approaching the crash site;" There were not any armed military units or military police at the scene, Carbondale police and Civil Air Patrol younsters were used to cordon off the area because it was feared that a satellite or space capsule's nuclear powered battery - or,"Snap Unit" as they are commonly called might have survived re-entry and may have been leaking its radioactive contents into the pond. One young C. A. P. member did come to the site with a pistol on his hip. It was reported to have been a 45 caliber automatic, and it was removed by the lad's superior at the request of Carbondale actimg police chief Det. Sgt. Francis X. Dottle, when he was alerted to the situation by Jerry Palko, a Scranton Times Reporter (and life-lomg resident of Carbondale) who was at the scene covering the story. Additionally, two of the pond's banks were quite steep and slippery so quite naturally, it was also feared that someone might accidentally fall into the pond in the fridged darkness. But, press people and curiousity seekers were permitted in the area during day light hours. Yet, some conspiracy-minded induvuduals have deemed these routine safety precautions to be evidence of a "Press Lock out". 7. "Whereas, after all these years our government insists that nothing occured and police department of Carbondale continues to claim that this was a hoax by some local teenager. Both government and City of Carbondale refuse to disclose records and evidence on the incident. " The primary flaw with this claim is that it is completely foundationless and lacking in candor. BUFO should post all of it's requests to authorities along with the authorities' responce to those alleged requests if they are going to accert that they were denied access to them or some type of physical evidence. I suspect the "evidence" that BUFO is talking about would be the railroad lantern because nothing else was found in the pond. Hannivig and Scassellati had also been actively seeking information concerning the whereabouts of 10 photos of the glow on the pond's surface, as well as the missing lantern which Frank thought was still in police lock up. (see his posted 2004 e-mail to Mrs. Sutherland on the matter). I provided BUFO with the name of the photographer who took 13 (not 10) photos at the pond on Nov. 10th,1974 and told them that the lantern was taken home as a retirement souvenir by the policeman who was Acting Police Chief during the UFO incident. The lantern had also been on display at a local tavern for awhile as a curiousity piece. There's not a hint of this information to be found in the BUFO petition. 8. "Whereas, the Cold War is long gone;" This is a rather curious comment which Ron Hannivig may have thought to include in the petition. I think the general idea is to inform the delegation that it is alright for the government to fess up about recovering a Soviet missile in the pond, and it's okay for the Russians to know that we did. If correct,this bit of mental gymnastics is probably Mr. Hannivig's most creative UFOOLogical fantasy. 9. "And whereas, The public has the right to know what its government recovered and answers to the following questions:" "What landed near Carbondale,PA on November, 1974" Nothing but a railroad lantern which was tossed into a pond by three teenagers on a nothing-else-to-do Saturday night in Carbondale. But, Bobby Gillette later confessed that he and the Lloyd brothers had also tossed a flashlight into the pond before they tossed the lantern in- and that the flashlight didn't burn very long. Gilette said that he and his buddies were trying to scare his sister Maria with a story that a monster or, something scary was in the water... (i. e., a post halloween prank that simply got out of control). "Where did the orders come from for Army, Air Force, personnel to be dispatched to the scene." The Army, the Air Force and local National Guard were not at the scene. The Carbondale police and a few surrounding community police were, along with Civil Air Patrol members from Carbondale and Scranton,PA. There were also five volunteer fire companies at the site from nearby communities. "Why did the military personnel and local officials contain the area to prevent the object from being observed." Although this question contains its own answer, I'll correct its errrors by pointing out that the area was cordoned off to "protect "the public from potential danger as it was initally feared that the object in the pond "may" have been radioactive Space Junk (i. e., a damaged Space Nuclear Auxillary Power unit). It was Dr. Hynek of CUFOS, who first warned the Acting Police Chief of this "potential danger", and explained that a falling meteor would have been instantly extinguished as it struck the pond. Dr. Hynek instructed the acting chief to proceed with caution and obtain a geiger counter to check out the pond area. The geiger counter was then loaned from the Forest City Police Department. (All of this is a matter of public record). "What was the importance of the object that caused the military to rapidly respond to the Carbondale area. " I'm hoping that the BUFOrians will be able to figure this one out for themselves, if they cannot, perhaps the question should be engraved on the wall of a UFO Mysteries Museum for all future BUFOrians to gaze upon in breathless wonder. A routine examination of newspaper archival photographs taken diuring the incident reveal that no military personnel were present, along with the complete lack of any reporter mentionoing they were. Well, I think that we've discussed enough of the BUFO PETITION'S ridiculous claims for now. Unfortunately, even with these unfounded charges, accusations and questions responded to, I'm certain that the inquisitive folks at BUFO will manage to come up with a few more. But, I think we have a good enough start to realize that the BUFO slant on this topic is not only frivilous, it's almost moronic too. (i. e., they are not presenting a fair and balanced (i. e,objective) accounting of the Carbondale incident... perhaps the G. A. O. can look into that little problem too? Moreover, BUFO bases all its investigative assumptions on the statements of the late Robert D. Barry of the 20th Century UFO Bureau; who claimed that a military man (an unidentified colonel), told him about a Soviet missile "probably" being in the pond. However, this colonel was never named and BUFO doesn't even know if he ever existed. - yet, the BUFOOLogists refer to him as a " military spokesman "thereby giving their spin on the story a bit of high-ranking (albeit, highly-questionable) authority. Mr. Hannivig appears to be the most prolific Spin Meister of the group, and we'll discuss several of his gems in the next entry of this journal. I once informed Mrs. Sutherland that the Carbondale UFO crash story had become a part of Lackawanna County's folklore - and that just as Davy Crockett hadn't actually kilt him a barr when he was only three (and everybody knows it), that knowledge hasn't compelled anyone to alter the lyrics in ole Davy's song of praise. I even asked Mary if she knew that Davy had reportedly riden on a light'n bolt? Mary replied, "No, I didn't know that Davy Crockett was said to have riden a light'n bolt. Was this light'n bolt of natural origin or ET engineered "... smiles. Mary continued, "But getting back to Carbondale, what happened that day was not folklore but it may be an important part of our American History someday. It is up to us now to find out all the facts so that our future generation can have a better source than what we had given to us from prevoius generations. Davy Crockett is a good example of how history rewrites according to how they "wanted" it instead of what really happened. Let us not repeat this same mistake. " After having read Mrs. Sutherland's highly informative and instructive words, I didn't have the heart to inform her that the Davy Crockett ballad was written at Disney Studios during the 1950's (not the 1850's), somehow I feel she may have missed the point entirely but, I did tell her that Davy's ride on a light'n bolt may have given rise to the 1960's term "Hot Pants!" I Anyway, I suppose that Mary's failure to post my complete essay on the Carbondale incident is an indicator that future generations are not going to receive an objective, fair and balanced reporting on the Carbondale incident from BUFO. That's why I'm going through the effort of writing this journal to pass along... I just wish I had a Tee-shirt or a UFO keyfob to offer for sale too but, I don't. So, stay tuned, and we'll continue our probe of this continuing BUFOOLogical activity in the next entry of the CARBONDALE UFO CRASH CHRONICLES... 'til then, " Keep on watch'n the skies, reading UFO Updates" and NEVER under estimate the wisdumb of BUFOOLogy! Matt Graeber DISCLAIMER: The auther of this journal entry is solely responsible for it's content. The comical aspects of the entry are credited to BUFO.
[ Next Message | Previous Message | This Day's Messages ]
This Month's Index |
UFO UpDates - Toronto - Operated by Errol Bruce-Knapp