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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2007 > Dec > Dec 15

Re: Zamora & Hynek [was: Penniston NP Conference &

From: Ray Stanford <dinosaurtracker.nul>
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:36:19 -0500
Archived: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 16:36:01 -0500
Subject: Re: Zamora & Hynek [was: Penniston NP Conference &

>From: Martin Shough <parcellular.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Thu, 13 Dec 2007 12:08:25 -0000
>Subject: Re: Penniston NP Conference & King

>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2007 22:08:05 -0600
>>Subject: Re: Penniston NP Conference & King

>>>From: Martin Shough <parcellular.nul>
>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 22:24:20 -0000
>>>Subject: Re: Penniston NP Conference & King

>>>>From: Lan Fleming <lfleming5.nul>
>>>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>>>Date: Mon, 10 Dec 2007 13:29:21 -0600
>>>>Subject: Re: Penniston NP Conference & King


>>>>I haven't been following the ins and outs of this discussion,

>>>Fair enough, but you're missing the point.

>>But I think you're missing _my_ point. You said the witnesses'
>>statements were will-o-the-wispy, which they were. But someone
>>gave a considerably more detailed description of the object in
>>Halt's memo that could not be reasonably described as a will o'
>>the wisp.

>I do see your point, Lan, but it's a misunderstanding. I
>described the reported _behaviour_ of the object during the
>pursuit as like the classic _behaviour_ of a will o' the whisp:
>As they seemed to get closer to it they found it wasn't where
>they previously thought it was.


Then, Lan Fleming said:

>>In another case that comes to mind, Lonnie Zamora originally
>>said that he saw two people in coveralls near the UFO in the
>>Socorro incident. After being ridiculed for seeing little people
>>in UFOs, he later omitted the "people" from his description and
>>said only that he had seen two pairs of coveralls near the
>>object. It apparently didn't occur to him that the image of two
>>pairs of empty pants standing by a UFO was even more ridiculous
>>that that of two little people, with or without pants. I don't
>>think that proves Zamorra was lying; UFO witnesses sometimes
>>seem to change their stories in ways that don't make a lot of
>>sense when they're under pressure. Maybe Penniston was lying,
>>but I think the evidence of that so far as I'm aware is less
>>than conclusive.

Please pardon my differing, Lan, but Lonnie Zamora didn't alter
his account of seeing two figures about the size of ten-year-old
children wearing what looked like white coveralls beside the
northwest landing gear of the object, and saying that one of
them seemed to jump, as though startled, when his police car
topped the ridge to the east of the landed craft.

It was Allen Hynek who 'hatched' the distorted version in his
news conference of Wednesday, April 29, 1962, at the El Rio
Motel in Socorro. Maybe Allen did that to please USAF Major
William Conner, from the Office of Public Information, of
Kirkland Air Force base, who was present. My 'gut' feeling was
that Conner was there pretty much as an 'enforcer', to see that
Allen 'sang the Air Force's song' composed for public

Let us keep in mind that at the time Hynek was under contract
with the USAF as a 'scientific consultant' when he generated the
farce of ostensibly empty 'white coveralls', as transcribed
verbatim from my tape recording of the 4-29-64 news conference,
and as reported on page 67 in my 1976 book on the Socorro case:

Walter Shrode of radio KSRC in Socorro, had asked Hynek: "And
the object and, uh, the people that he sighted and their size?"

Allen Hynek responded: "He told me nothing about having seen any
people. And, uuh, this I read in the newspapers, but he, uuh,
was, uuuh, apparently not, well as far as I know he, he did not
say anything specifically about having seen any people. Not to
me, at any rate. And I did ask him about it. I know that there
was an earlier report that he had seen people, but, uuh, to me
he said nothing specific about people"

Shrode: "Did he describe seeing any objects that appeared to be,
uh, in white coveralls, sir?"

Hynek (his voice weak and hesitating): "He indicated that,
uuuuuuhh, uuh,, he saw something, uuh, along the side of the
instrument or the device that resembled white coveralls. Yes."

Shrode glanced at me, rolling his eyes up.There was no need to
force Hynek to humiliate himself any further. Disgusted (as he
told me later), Shrode closed the for-the-record (official)
portion of the conference.

About four months later, on Wednesday, August 26, 1964, when I
again interviewed Lonnie Zamora, with Bob McGarey as a witness,
Zamora confirmed that the two figures he had seen beside the
landed object's northwest landing gear resembled, "...two ten-
year-old kids in white coveralls." Additionally, Lonnie hinted
that he was beginning to wonder if the craft and its occupants
might have been from "space". Specifically, he said "...From the
officials I've talked to, [I] don't see how it could'a been
anything, you know, that we [That "we" was strongly emphasized
by Zamora's voice tone.] made. Seemed like they [government
officials] might know that too. I'd say it might be from space,
yes. I don't know, but you might say that."

Twelve years later (1976), Allen Hynek came to Austin, Texas,
bringing visitors to my UFO-monitoring optical and electronic
laboratories on our 400-acre lab site, equipped with optical,
spectral, magnetic, gravitic, and radar tracking and recording
systems. I was deeply appreciative when he voluntarily confessed
his 'sins' of the April 29, 1964, news event and told my wife,
me, and those he had brought (Mimi Hynek, Dave Baldwin, and Carl
Teutsch), "Ray, you gave me exactly what I had coming!"

I'd earlier sent Allen a copy of my book on the Socorro case,
which he had read just before that 1976 visit to my project's
Austin offices and our UFO tracking facilities, N-W of Austin,
off Volente Road, in the 'hill country'.

In evidence of his sincere and good-spirited acknowledgement
that in the book I had dealt properly with him, Hynek went on to
provide me a letter with nice, positive praise intended for use
in promoting my Socorro book, written on Northwestern University
Department of Astronomy stationery. Electronic copies of that
letter may be obtained from me 'for the asking', at:


Copies are offered not to promote my 1976 Socorro book - which
is hard to find - but in substantiation of Hynek's fairness,
openness, and attitude change about and likely in large part
resulting from, what he heard and learned of the very evidential
Zamora-Socorro CE III.

In my opinion, Allen Hynek should be forgiven for his 'sin' of
having started the 'white coveralls only' myth, since once out
of constraints of his USAF contract he - in 1976 - voluntarily
rectified his 1964 news event statements in the presence of
witnesses. That and my other encounters with that true gentleman
of ufology commend him, in my opinion, as someone to whom our
field will long owe gratitude, for, in fact, many diverse

To anyone on this List who might not really like Allen Hynek, I
simply suggest that you try to walk a mile or more in his shoes,
and realize the man's fine personal character, even when tested
by criticism of colleagues.

Thanks for reading this, and may every reader have a safe and
positive holiday season, including a splendid 2008.

Ray Stanford,

BTW: Yes, like it or not, I'm still alive at ~ 70, while
regularly tracking dinosaurs and other Mesozoic vertebrates (via
Maryland's Early Cretaceous tracks and trackways), in-the-while
having found and recognized an absolutely new taxon (= genus-
and-species) of dinosaur (per se, not tracks), already
scientifically described and soon to be published in a refereed
and major paleontological - palaeontological, if you're of the
U.K. - journal.

Also, believe it or not, I'm still, even just two weeks ago,
noticing, tracking, and photographing occasional daylight UFOs
that violate the D.C./Maryland area's highly-monitored air
space. Any of my D.C. area UFO photos deemed scientifically
significant will be published in a time and context of my
choice. Please, no one, shout "Put them on rense.com or on You
Tube!" Any good, significant UFO evidence deserves a better
context and introduction.

Here-and-now, I just wanted to set the Zamora record straight by
writing my above submission, which based on my first-hand,
recorded, face-to-face discussions with Lonnie Zamora and Allen

For the record, my Socorro interviews began on the evening of
Tuesday, April 28, 1964, four days after the April 24, 1964,
Socorro "close encounter of the third kind", to use Hynek's own


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