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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2007 > Jun > Jun 18

Re: U.S. Spies On Ufologists - Redfern

From: Nicholas Redfern <nick_redfern.nul>
Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 06:27:29 -0700 (PDT)
Fwd Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2007 10:57:37 -0400
Subject: Re: U.S. Spies On Ufologists - Redfern

>From: Richard Hall <hallrichard99.nul>
>To: ufoupdates.nul
>Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2007 12:47:31 +0000
>Subject: Re: U.S. Spies On Ufologists

>The fallacy of your reasoning is the premise that all proposed
>explanations for Roswell are equaly valid and have equal amounts
>of credible evidence in support of them.

>Proof in science is an elusive thing, but your argument is like
>claiming that since you can't prove anything it is equally valid
>to believe the fossil record or the Bible when it comes to

>Or that OJ was innocent, not guilty.

>Or that UFOs are only a social fantasy construct, not real solid

>Taking refuge in the 'no proof' argument is a


Nope. You are wrong. No cop-out. And I don't take refuge either.

You say: 'The fallacy of your reasoning is the premise that all
proposed explanations for Roswell are equaly valid and have
equal amounts of credible evidence in support of them.'

No. I have never said that, and don't even support such a
scenario. Of course, there are a number of theories for Roswell
that have no validity in my mind (the weather balloon, for a
start; a V2 rocket as a second).

What I am saying is that it's just a cold, hard fact that
Roswell - in terms of specific, hard evidence - remains unsolved
and always will remains so. We have no hard proof and we never
will. It's either destroyed or hidden. If it's destroyed, we are
utterly screwed and will never get the hard evidence. If it's
hidden, why on earth should the government change it's approach
and say it lied for 60 years and then release all it's old
Roswell files to us? Won't happen.

But a lot of ufologists can't face the fact that they will
likely go to their graves never having resolved what the true
unknowns are (to where it can be proven), or that they will
never really know the full story of Roswell (again to where it
can be proven and before they die).

I, however, am willing to admit that no matter how much effort
we put in, Roswell is one of those that will never be settled
because we can't prove anything definitively. That's not a cop-
out. It's just a fact, and a fact that is due to the passage of
time, the government stance re claiming no files, and less and
less still-living witnesses who were there to who we can speak.

Keyhoe, Stringfield, Hynek, etc., etc: every single one of them
dedicated decades to UFO studies. And they all died. And they
all died not knowing the answer to the UFO puzzle. Unless
something really dramatic happens, every single person on this
list will die before anything about Roswell can be firmly

Look at the data: the government admits it has no official files
to confirm that a Mogul balloon crashed; and hardly anyone
accepts the weather balloon angle.

The UFO angle remains unproven in terms of files, as does the
data in my book in terms of files, and so all any of us have is
testimony and a few circumstantial records that are open to

The point I was making in my post that Gildas Bourdais commented
on was that, in my view, the lack of files and the inevitability
of death on the part of those that were there 60 years ago means
that Roswell is likely to remain unsolved (and by unsolved I
mean to where we have definitive hard proof - in terms of a
government admission; official files; or a corpse or craft that
can be examined). However, I see no reason why the Government -
 if it has such files - should come forward now, officially, and
admit that it has lied for decades.

Roswell is now the ufological version of Jack the Ripper - lots
of theories, lots of ideas, lots of scenarios, evidence of
official interest, claims of high-level cover-up, but at the end
of the day everyone involved is dead (in the Ripper case), and
practically everyone is gone as far as Roswell is concerned.

And the result is that (as with Jack the Ripper researchers)
Roswell continues to intrigue a couple of thousand ufologists on
a regular basis, and (in varying degrees and at varying times)
it interests, intrigues, bemuses and amuses the media and the
public - just as UFOs have always done, and likely always will.

Do I believe that there are true unknowns? Yes, there are
hundreds of good reports. Do I think that Roswell involved
aliens? No. Do I think that we can get firm evidence of what
happened at Roswell? No. Or, at the _very_ least, probably not.
Should we keep looking, though, just in case? Of course we
should; to not do so would be completely stupid.

But, to go back to the beginning and your cop-out angle: none of
my comments amount to a cop-out on my part. I'm merely pushing
home to people the facts they don't want to hear: namely that
the one case upon which much of Ufology stands cannot be firmly


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