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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2007 > Nov > Nov 11

Re: Phoenix March 13 2007??

From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:22:17 -0500
Archived: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:52:48 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix March 13 2007??


>From: Martin Shough <parcellular.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:47:23 -0000
>Subject: Phoenix March 13 2007?? [was: Larry King Live...]

>>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:48:08 -0500
>>Subject: Re: Larry King Live UFOs Now Friday Night

>>The term "Phoenix Lights" has become a common reference to all
>>the phenomena seen that night (March 13, 1997). However, the
>>'lights' which are generally referred to by the media were
>>60-80 miles southwest of Phoenix and seen by only 3 people who
>>videotaped them at about 10 PM.

>>Of more importance was the triangle UFO that flew right over
>>Phoenix at about 8:30 PM This is what Symington saw.

>Thanks for once again making this distinction clear between the
>videotaped lights and the earlier reports. As I'm not very well
>informed on this case I wonder if you could answer a couple of
>questions?

>It may be because some proponents of the event themselves seem to
>conflate the videotaped lights with the 8:30 event that I find
>I'd like to be clearer in my own mind about how certain this
>distinction is.

It is true that many proponents have combined the events.
However, they may be 'forgiven': The situation is quite
complicated and I'm not certain that even to this date anyone
has published a complete (or nearly complete) and exact history
of the sightings. Dr. Lynn Kitei's book, The Phoenix Lights,
provides a version of the history, but quite slanted toward her
interpretation.

However, without being historically precise one can say this
about how the UFO investigators and the press got their
impression that is was all one big event during the in the days
immediately following the sighting(s); it was known that
sightings had occurred north of Phoenix starting at about 8 PM.

The object (triangle or V) was reported in sequential locations
moving southward from the Prescott area (about 50 miles north of
Phoenix). At about 8:30 people who were outside in Phoenix
watching the Hale Bopp comet or whatever they were doing, saw a
huge V or triangle pass _overhead_or nearly overhead.

Then there was at least one sighting south of Phoenix north of
Tucson by people who, as I recall, claimed they drove underneath
a huge object as they were driving northward. Then in the 9:30-
 10 PM time frame there were people who saw glowing orbs in the
sky (but not overhead!) and, of course, those who videotaped
(see below). In the days following the event the ufo
investigators decided that this was all one event and "invented"
the following story that the press accepted as probably true (no
press person, to my knowledge, carried out an investigation that
would support or refute this version of the history):

the V/triangle UFO had passed over Phoenix, had headed toward
Tucson then had turned north and stopped just south of Phoenix
(or over Phoenix from the perspective views of Kitei and
Krzysten) when it then "turned on its lights" and these lights
on the object were what appeared in the videos.

So, you can see how the idea that the "lights" (videotaped
lights) became associated with the V that flew over the city.

The big differentiators between the 8:30 and 10 PM events (and I
just know you like differentiation) are (a) the time difference
and (b) the difference in angular elevation: the V passed
overhead with people looking "straight up" at it, whereas the
"lights" were always low on the horizon for the people in the
Phoenix area.

>>From your own investigations, is there a clearly defined
>clustering of times around 8:30 in _original_ reports recorded as
>.having been submitted that night or within the next day or so?

>The reason I ask is this.

>From http://phoenix.about.com/cs/weather/qt/timezone.htm :

>"Arizona does not observe Daylight Saving Time. This means that
>in Arizona we never change our clocks like most of the rest of
>the country does. On the first Sunday in November (starting in
>2007), when everyone else "falls back" or sets their clock back
>one hour, we do not. From that first Sunday in November through
>the second Sunday in March we are one hour ahead of those states
>on Pacific Time, like California and Nevada; one hour behind
>states in the Central Time zone, such as Texas and Illinois; and
>only two hours behind those states on Eastern Time, such as New
>York and Florida.">

>The lights over the Estrellas now identified as flares are said
>to have been seen between about 9:30 to 10:00 PM (according to
>Peter Davenports's summaries and others). I've seen reports
>apparently associated with the earlier cluster that are timed as
>late as 9:00PM or later, some prior to 8:30. So in very broad
>terms there looks to be about an hour between these events.

>March 13 1997 was a Thursday, so the second Sunday in March when
>the Phoenix clocks on MST effectively fell 1 hour behind
>national DST must have been 16th March, only 3 days after the
>UFO sightings. I imagine many of the reports were collected
>during later days and weeks. Has this been looked into? Can we
>be sure that retrospective verbal reports logged by ufologists
>during later days as having occurred at around an hour earlier
>than the flare drop were not confused by the time change (or
>even that the timers on the videos were not showing DST) ?

The immediate sighting reports of the object over Phoenix were
in the press the next day. On March 14 the videotapers learned
of the "massice sighting" the night before and said to
themselves, "Wow, we videotaped the UFO"... or something like
that. (Certainly Dr. Kitei was "johnny on the spot" with her
video and gave it to the newsmedia on the 14th.) By the night of
the 14th all of the basic sightings and videos were known. There
is no doubt of the timings as there would be if the witnesses
were recalling months later.

>(A similar confusion appears possibly to have occurred in the
>March 1993 "RAF Cosford" case in the UK, where a number of
>reports of what reason suggests was probably the Cosmos booster
>re-entry were logged with times differing by an hour or even
>more, apparently because of the change from GMT to BST two days
>previously)

>Is it at all concerning, do you think, that the identifiable
>10:00 PM flare drop was (you tell us) witnessed by only 3 people
>(or groups) all of whom managed to film it; whereas the earlier
>UFO lights are said to have been witnessed by a great many
>people - hundreds, thousands are claimed - none of whom seems to
>have filmed anything? Or perhaps I'm not aware of them. But if
>someone did, why are _those_ videos of triangles flying overhead
>not on YouTube instead of the flares? Are they available
>anywhere?

I was speaking too loosely here. I should be more accurate and,
in fact, have recalled that there was a fourth group of
videotape witnesses (Tom King and Bill Hamilton who were at a
house in in the Southeastern area near Phoenix; these added to
Mike Krzysten and wife Susan in north Phoenix area, Lynn Kitei
and husband about 7 miles east of Krzysten and Chuck Rairdon
some 30 miles east of Lynn).  I shouldn't have said there were
"only" three people because, as I just pointed out there was a
fourth group, but, more importantly, I should have said that
(after all these years) I don't _know_ of anyone else who saw,
with or without videotape, the lights at 10 PM. There may have
been more witnesses, but if so they were not very "forward"
about it.

As for a video at 8:30, my recollection is that there was a very
poor video in which a small image of a V shape of lights was
passing over which was explained as a flight of aircraft
(military) at some high altitude. I am not aware of anyone with
a video of a huge dark object/craft the blocked out the stars,
for example (visual discription) as it passed overhead.

>>I have been informed that the view southwestward from his house
>>where he was when he saw the triangle view of the "lights" would
>>have made it impossible for him to see the "lights" at 10 PM.

>This is the sort of thing I'd like to know more about. Is there
>a definitive study you could recommend that goes into lines of
>sight and other issues in sufficient detail to make a cast iron
>case for a distinct 8:30 UFO (or flap of multiple UFOs)?

"The definitive study" of the 10 PM videos, but not the 8:30 PM
triangle, is posted at my web site:

www.brumac.8k.com/phoenixlights1.html

I have not investigated the 8:30 event, I have only read about
it. The difference here is, I actually talked face to face with
the videotapers and went to their respective houses (Krzysten,
Kitei and Rairdon). I did speak to an Air Force Col (I was told)
who did see the 8:30 triangle and said he was dumbfounded (or
words to that effect) as this thing passed silently overhead.



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