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Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2007 > Nov > Nov 12

Re: Phoenix March 13 2007??

From: Martin Shough <parcellular.nul>
Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 23:13:57 -0000
Archived: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 09:10:31 -0500
Subject: Re: Phoenix March 13 2007??

>From: Bruce Maccabee <brumac.nul>
>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>Date: Sun, 11 Nov 2007 14:22:17 -0500
>Subject: Re: Phoenix March 13 2007?? [was: Larry King Live...]

>>From: Martin Shough <parcellular.nul>
>>To: <ufoupdates.nul>
>>Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 17:47:23 -0000
>>Subject: Phoenix March 13 2007?? [was: Larry King Live...]

>So, you can see how the idea that the "lights" (videotaped
>lights) became associated with the V that flew over the city.

>The big differentiators between the 8:30 and 10 PM events (and I
>just know you like differentiation) are (a) the time difference
>and (b) the difference in angular elevation: the V passed
>overhead with people looking "straight up" at it, whereas the
>"lights" were always low on the horizon for the people in the
>Phoenix area.

Hi Bruce

Yes, I did get that impression about the reports in the early
cluster triangle(s) from the summaries I read, that objects were
several times reported passing across the sky near the zenith.
In some cases also the objects were definitely reported as first
appearing over the N horizon, which seems to be opposite to the
direction of the ranges where the flares were. So point (b)
looks good. It would be reassuring to have point (a) proved by
key triangle-overflight reports that were logged, by police or
press or NUFORC, say, in real time. If "thousands" or even (I
saw somewhere) "hundreds of thousands" saw these things then
surely there must be at least some police or FAA logs containing
timed reports, of explicit triangle overflights, made well
before the known flare drop time. This would be a clear proof.
Are there such logged sighting reports, does anyone know?


>>Can we
>>be sure that retrospective verbal reports logged by ufologists
>>during later days as having occurred at around an hour earlier
>>than the flare drop were not confused by the time change (or
>>even that the timers on the videos were not showing DST) ?

>The immediate sighting reports of the object over Phoenix were
>in the press the next day. On March 14 the videotapers learned
>of the "massice sighting" the night before and said to
>themselves, "Wow, we videotaped the UFO"... or something like
>that. (Certainly Dr. Kitei was "johnny on the spot" with her
>video and gave it to the newsmedia on the 14th.) By the night
>of the 14th all of the basic sightings and videos were known.
>There is no doubt of the timings as there would be if the
>witnesses were recalling months later.

OK, so the ~8:30 triangle reports I've read about, describing
those very un-flare-like properties mentioned above, were in
print and circulated _before_  the flare videos were brought
out? That's a very important point. It would good to see it
documented in detail, and even better if any early triangle-
overflight eports were logged in real time.

>>(A similar confusion appears possibly to have occurred in the
>>March 1993 "RAF Cosford" case in the UK, where a number of
>>reports of what reason suggests was probably the Cosmos booster
>>re-entry were logged with times differing by an hour or even
>>more, apparently because of the change from GMT to BST two days

Intriguingly there is one report in the Cosford case of exactly
the kind I'm asking about here. The penumbra of much earlier and
later reports around the core 0110 group (which appear to have
been Cosmos) contains several which have a descriptive factor in
common - objects (or patterns of lights) with two components,
like "two concordes fixed together", a twin-hulled "catamaran"
or just "two lights". We can fit this to Cosmos by assuming
gross timing errors, since the Cosmos group of reports also
shares a basic "two light" pattern (augmented sometimes by a
faint third). At the same time, at least one of these penumbral
reports can also possibly be explained as a pair of Navy
helicopters known to have been operating in the sighting area,
so it's a bit messy. But maybe these "windfall" reports which
emerged over subsequent days were selectively shaken out by
descriptions that people heard, so that two-component UFO
descriptions were favoured? That seems plausible. Except for the
existence of one early report of an object with two rows of
lwhite ights, which was actually _logged_ by police hours before
Cosmos re-entered. For me this one fact keeps open a chink of
curiosity about aspects of the Cosford affair, even though it
seems inescapable that the Cosmos booster re-entry was
responsible for the bulk of reports and, if pressed, I'd have to
say that the Pennistone report is probably coincidental.

>>Is it at all concerning, do you think, that the identifiable
>>10:00 PM flare drop was (you tell us) witnessed by only 3 people
>>(or groups) all of whom managed to film it; whereas the earlier
>>UFO lights are said to have been witnessed by a great many
>>people - hundreds, thousands are claimed - none of whom seems
>>to have filmed anything? Or perhaps I'm not aware of them. But if
>>someone did, why are _those_ videos of triangles flying overhead
>>not on YouTube instead of the flares? Are they available

>I was speaking too loosely here. I should be more accurate and,
>in fact, have recalled that there was a fourth group of
>videotape witnesses (Tom King and Bill Hamilton who were at a
>house in in the Southeastern area near Phoenix; these added to
>Mike Krzysten and wife Susan in north Phoenix area, Lynn Kitei
>and husband about 7 miles east of Krzysten and Chuck Rairdon
>some 30 miles east of Lynn).  I shouldn't have said there were
>"only" three people because, as I just pointed out there was a
>fourth group, but, more importantly, I should have said that
>(after all these years) I don't _know_ of anyone else who saw,
>with or without videotape, the lights at 10 PM. There may have
>been more witnesses, but if so they were not very "forward"
>about it.

OK, so _four_ shots at goal, and _four_ scored, for the flares.
Makes the absence of triangle-overflight videos just a little
more concerning, then. Especially if (as you indicate above) the
flare videotapers only realised after the publicity on the 14th
that they may have filmed the Phoenix triangle - i.e., they were
not primed by breaking-news stories to get their cameras out and
look for UFOs.

>As for a video at 8:30, my recollection is that there was a very
>poor video in which a small image of a V shape of lights was
>passing over which was explained as a flight of aircraft
>(military) at some high altitude. I am not aware of anyone with
>a video of a huge dark object/craft the blocked out the stars,
>for example (visual discription) as it passed overhead.

This overflight of a V of military aircraft doesn;t tend to
reduce my unease about the absence of giant-triangle videos.
Although whether people were amazed by a V of aircraft lights or
by a spacecraft shouldn't, one imagines, make any difference.
There should be about an equal likelihood of videos in either
case, so this is a unsolved mystery and is not negative
evidence. Unless we suggest that some more videos were indeed
made of an aircraft formation but - like the one you mention -
 turned out to be too small, faint and unimpressive in
comparison with the witness descrioptions and so never made it
past first viewings? I doubt that somehow. Surely there would be
at least a shakey zoom shot or two showing what YouTubers could
tell each other was a giant triangle? I think this is a _bit_ of
a puzzle however you look at it.

>>>I have been informed that the view southwestward from his house
>>>where he was when he saw the triangle view of the "lights" would
>>>have made it impossible for him to see the "lights" at 10 PM.

>>This is the sort of thing I'd like to know more about. Is there
>>a definitive study you could recommend that goes into lines of
>>sight and other issues in sufficient detail to make a cast iron
>>case for a distinct 8:30 UFO (or flap of multiple UFOs)?

>"The definitive study" of the 10 PM videos, but not the 8:30 PM
>triangle, is posted at my web site:


And I think you've done an exemplary job.

>I have not investigated the 8:30 event, I have only read about
>it. The difference here is, I actually talked face to face with
>the videotapers and went to their respective houses (Krzysten,
>Kitei and Rairdon). I did speak to an Air Force Col (I was told)
>who did see the 8:30 triangle and said he was dumbfounded (or
>words to that effect) as this thing passed silently overhead.

I must say, I wish you had been able to investigate the rest,
with your usual thoroughness. I'd have more confidence in the
case if you had, though I do agree it's on the face of it still
very intriguing.

Martin Shough

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