UFO UpDates
A mailing list for the study of UFO-related phenomena
'Its All Here In Black & White'
Location: UFOUpDatesList.Com > 2010 > Oct > Oct 17

MJ-12 Redux [was: Shostak's Search Shift?]

From: Kevin Randle <KRandle993.nul>
Date: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 11:24:56 EDT
Archived: Sun, 17 Oct 2010 12:40:29 -0400
Subject: MJ-12 Redux [was: Shostak's Search Shift?]

>From: Stanton Friedman <fsphys.nul>
>To: post.nul
>Date: Thu, 14 Oct 2010 04:33:22 -0700 (PDT)
>Subject: Re: Shostak's Search Shift?

>>From: J. Maynard Gelinas <j.maynard.gelinas.nul>
>>To: post.nul
>>Date: Wed, 13 Oct 2010 18:11:42 -0400
>>Subject: Re: Shostak's Search Shift?

>>Hi David; Stanton,

>>Thank you both for your responses. My reply is once again combined
>>into a single message to you both:


>I would certainly acknowledge that there are many people on this
>List and elsewhere claiming that the EBD, CT, TF items are
>fraudulent. I believe I have dealt with all their arguments. I
>keep asking for refutations of my refutations. All I get is
>research by proclamation. "They are obvious frauds". I wish they
>would add "because A,B,C... which with STF hasn't dealt".

>I am off to a conference in Strasbourg... Back Monday.
>I won't hold my breath.

Stan, List, All -

I can't just let this go unchallenged. The consensus is that
MJ-12 is a hoax. Not a government disinformation campaign, not
something designed to keep us guessing and chasing phantoms, but
something created and designed to propel specific people back
into the spotlight. Or, as has been suggested by one of those
who released it into the world, to fool those who had knowledge
of the Roswell crash into revealing information that was, and
is, classified.

Although Stan attempts to shout down those of us who do not
accept MJ-12 as authentic by suggesting that he has answered all
objections to MJ-12, he has done so only in his own mind. He has
not explained the lack of provenance, which contrary to what he
has said to me, is not an indicator of its authenticity but is
predictive of hoax.

Those who have researched the type style of the various
components of MJ-12 (the Truman memo) say that it was created on
a typewriter that did not exist in 1952. This is based, not on
just a comparison of the upper and lower case letters, but on
the various numbers and symbols, done with the complete drawings
and specifications from the factory. It is evidence that the
typewriter did not exist in 1952... And yes, I know he will say
that Peter Tytell has not issued a formal written report but
will not remember to say that it was he who sent the material to
Tytell in the first place.

I will note here that the information on the EBD is the state of
the investigation of crashed saucers in 1982 or 1983 and not
what it is today. This provides us with a clue as to when the
document was created and that is not 1952.

I will note, though Stan will deny it, Bill Moore said, in the
early 1980s, that he was thinking of creating a Roswell document
to shake things loose. Moore said this to a number of people and
it has been widely reported. Then, the MJ-12 documents arrive at
the home of Moore's friend who was not well known in the UFO

It is interesting that here is a document that was created to
brief the President-Elect but is incomplete. It mentions nothing
about the Plains of San Agustin or Aztec, two of the crashes
that are now said to be real. There is no reasonable explanation
for these two events to be ignored if MJ-12 is real and those
events are real... but remember, in the early 80s almost no one
believed Aztec to be anything other than a hoax and Bill Moore
knew that the only connection to the Plains was the rather vague
information attributed to Fleck Danley. The Barney Barnett diary
(or actually the diary kept by Ruth Barnett) has nothing,
absolutely nothing, to suggest that Barney saw anything on the
Plains, or that he was out on the Plains on the right days.

And we have Herbert Dick, who was clearly on the Plains, in a
position to see any UFO crash there (he arrived on July 1
according to a letter he sent to a colleague in late 1947) but
reported nothing.

But by the early 1980s, Bill Moore, among others, were
questioning the validity of suggesting that Barnett's story
had anything to do with July 1947.

So, the MJ-12 documents mention nothing about either the Plains
or Aztec because, in the early 1980s many knew that those two
events were not well documented.

Stan will say that I said I rejected MJ-12 because Admiral
Hillenkoetter got his rank wrong. I have told Stan this really
isn't important, though Stan has yet to find a document on
which Hillenkoetter got his rank wrong. Rather than address the
real issues, he'll attempt to divert the conversation to these
other points.

I will say that no one has ever found a document, an authentic
document referring to MJ-12 in the 25 years since these were
announced. The Cutler-Twining Memo, found in the National
Archives was clearly planted there, something that Stan will
tell you. But if the document was planted, and there is again,
no provenance, then it does nothing to validate MJ-12. And
that's where we are today. There is nothing that validates MJ-
12. And the information we do have suggests that MJ-12 is a

Yes, I know that Stan will say that we have no evidence that
Bill Moore (and Richard Doty) were behind the MJ-12 documents,
but there are some good clues. The dating format used by Moore,
but not the US military or the US government is on them. Yes, it
is used in Europe and in NATO, but those arguments are

Normally, I don't get involved in these discussions because
they turn out the same way. But sometimes I just don't want to
let Stan get away with his proclamations about the validity of
MJ-12. I am surprised that he continues to defend MJ-12 when
even Bill Moore says that he finds many of those documents to be
of dubious provenance.

The thing is, no matter how often you argue for the authenticity
of MJ-12, it doesn't make it so. You need to have evidence and
there is precious little of that for MJ-12.

For a more comprehensive look at some of this, please go to

So, let the game begin.


Listen to 'Strange Days... Indeed' - The PodCast



These contents above are copyright of the author and
UFO UpDates - Toronto. They may not be reproduced
without the express permission of both parties and
are intended for educational use only.